The Abortion Thread - Page 4 - Politics and Economics

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The Abortion Thread

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11-06-2009 , 01:50 PM

#76

ANONN123

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"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

That's probably the best I can do. Is this going to turn into a "What is the meaning of Life?" debate?

11-06-2009 , 01:54 PM

#77

elwoodblues

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Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 5,393

Quote:

Originally Posted by chucky

Q here for pro-lifers. If your wife/gf is pregnant but has not given birth during a census taking, is the fetus included in the form that you can fill out for the count. This assumes that that people in this thread would voluntarily participate in the census. I would answer no.

There is your answer of how many "persons" are residing at the residence. The idea of murder doesnt work in terms of the death of non-persons unless you want to stretch murder to cover the intentional killing of any animal, which I suspect is not the standard view in this forum.

There are very few people on both extremes --- very few who treat a fetus as a fully developed person (i.e. "count" them) and also very few who see the fetus as no different than a fingernail that we clip.

11-06-2009 , 01:58 PM

#78

Bigdaddydvo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

Going through a pregnancy is alot of physical trauma to stop from killing someone, who at the temporary moment has way less cognitive abilities and self awareness than what people usually eat for dinner.

fyp

I'd actually argue that on balance having an abortion is more physically damaging to a woman than having a child is. As far as emotional damage, the answer is abortion AINEC.

11-06-2009 , 02:02 PM

#79

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddydvo

fyp

lol, yeah I was talking about the thing that you are killing when it is being killed. Not what it would have become in some parallel universe in which it wasn't aborted.

Quote:

I'd actually argue that on balance having an abortion is more physically damaging to a woman than having a child is. As far as emotional damage, the answer is abortion AINEC.

Even so, it is probably a choice the individual should make.

11-06-2009 , 02:11 PM

#80

Nielsio

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bware

We shouldn't murder because of God? Is that your answer?

11-06-2009 , 02:11 PM

#81

Bigdaddydvo

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

lol, yeah I was talking about the thing that you are killing when it is being killed. Not what it would have become in some parallel universe in which it wasn't aborted.

Even so, it is probably a choice the individual should make.

The main point is that being unborn, or a fetus or whatever is definitionally a temporary situation. Just like being a baby, a child, puberty, or any other stage in life. Based on your premise I could make the same argument that a patient undergoing surgery being under anasthesia as having no right to life because of their temporarily reduced self awareness. In both cases of the unborn child and the patient undergoing surgery, in the normal course of things self awareness emerges.

11-06-2009 , 02:16 PM

#82

JayTeeMe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddydvo

Interesting.

11-06-2009 , 02:18 PM

#83

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigdaddydvo

No, people going under surgery are capable of deciding before that they don't want to be killed. And they also have much, much higher brain activity than a young fetus, which doesn't have a brain. A close approximation to a fetus right after it has been fertilized is an unfertilized egg, not a person or a child with a developed brain under anasthesia.

11-06-2009 , 02:29 PM

#84

Montius

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

The brain begins developing at week 3 and has the (3) recognizable divisions that a fully developed baby (and adult, for that matter) does at 5 weeks.

11-06-2009 , 02:31 PM

#85

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Montius

The brain begins developing at week 3 and has the (3) recognizable divisions that a fully developed baby (and adult, for that matter) does at 5 weeks.

Assuming this is correct, nobody has a problem with abortions before week 3?

11-06-2009 , 02:34 PM

#86

JayTeeMe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

Assuming this is correct, nobody has a problem with abortions before week 3?

I do but I prefer the distinction of "when do you have your own DNA" which happens at T=0. I'm a hardass.

11-06-2009 , 02:34 PM

#87

Montius

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

Assuming this is correct, nobody has a problem with abortions before week 3?

I don't have a problem with abortions at all, but then again, my reasoning isn't based on some arbitrary measure of self-awareness/consciousness/brain development.

11-06-2009 , 02:38 PM

#88

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JayTeeMe

I do but I prefer the distinction of "when do you have your own DNA" which happens at T=0. I'm a hardass.

Are you religious and just looking for a justification for your view? Or do you actually think that the DNA thing is relevant?

11-06-2009 , 02:43 PM

#89

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Montius

I don't have a problem with abortions at all, but then again, my reasoning isn't based on some arbitrary measure of self-awareness/consciousness/brain development.

I think it is somewhat relevant depending on the reasons why a person wants to make abortion illegal.

11-06-2009 , 02:43 PM

#90

JayTeeMe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

Are you religious and just looking for a justification for your view? Or do you actually think that the DNA thing is relevant?

No and yes.

11-06-2009 , 02:44 PM

#91

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JayTeeMe

No and yes.

11-06-2009 , 02:48 PM

#92

Montius

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

I think it is somewhat relevant depending on the reasons why a person wants to make abortion illegal.

Well, like I said, I agree with Block in that I think the act of abortion must be conceptually separated into the acts of (a) eviction of the fetus from the womb; and (b) killing the fetus.

11-06-2009 , 02:51 PM

#93

ANONN123

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nielsio

We shouldn't murder because of God? Is that your answer?

No, that's where I pulled "unalienable rights" from.

What is the meaning of life?

11-06-2009 , 02:52 PM

#94

Montius

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bware

What is the meaning of life?

11-06-2009 , 02:57 PM

#95

Max Raker

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Montius

Well, like I said, I agree with Block in that I think the act of abortion must be conceptually separated into the acts of (a) eviction of the fetus from the womb; and (b) killing the fetus.

I'm not going listen to that whole thing, but I can sort of guess what he was talking about. Really, I don't even care that much about this issue. I don't think abortion is some great tragedy but it also isn't that hard to avoid pregnancies as well. The only situations in which I think it is very bad not to provide abortions is rape and I think very very few people want to prevent it then.

11-06-2009 , 03:01 PM

#96

ANONN123

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Montius

haha i should have expected that

11-06-2009 , 03:01 PM

#97

Montius

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Max Raker

http://www.walterblock.com/wp-conten...rtion-2005.pdf

^If you don't mind reading and don't want to listen to it.

11-06-2009 , 03:17 PM

#98

JayTeeMe

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Montius

Well, like I said, I agree with Block in that I think the act of abortion must be conceptually separated into the acts of (a) eviction of the fetus from the womb; and (b) killing the fetus.

Let's say you are a guest on my airplane. While we all agree (except, apparently, Nielsio) that it would be immoral for me to shoot and kill you, would it be less immoral for me to evict you from my plane at 35,000 feet knowing that it will 100% result in your death?