a question I would have is how do people think building 7 collapsed, if not from explosives? The buildings owner even said it was "pulled down". How did they even get it ready to be demolished?

Post deleted by owsley

Interesting read.
Looks like this is from Alex Jones website, but this piece is not written by him. The piece basically echo's my sentiments about 9/11 and the governments story on it.

Put yourself in the shoes of the government. From what I have read (and I am not speaking authoritatively, this is IIRC) it is seems likely that the 4th plane in PA was shot down rather than taken down by hero passengers. Why would the government ever want any of that to see the light of day? Evidence of the air force shooting down an airliner? It is also extremely obvious why the government wouldnt want to release footage of the pentagon getting hit and being shown all over world. Information like that is radioactive, and since the conspiracy theories arent anywhere close to a credible threat to their leadership, why would they release it?

In these situations is it logical for a government to avoid transparency and full disclosure, and it is a big mistake to think that is evidence of a conspiracy.

Why would whoever is behind this grand scheme want to blow up WTC 7 as well? Does that make any sense at all?

page saying that WTC 7 fell because of unfought fires, and that the pull thing is out of context

so "pull" in this case meant pull out. Classic. What a farce. Its all anecdotal, and after the fact. These guys can go back and say whatever they want.

And blowing up WTC7 would make sense considering Silverstein owned it and had an insurance policy.

BTW, Owsly, I am talking about the video of the plane hitting the pentagon, not the crash in Pennsylvania. They have security tape footage of the incident. Why not release it? We all know the claims that it was a missle, or better yet, an unmarked government jet. A pic of a plane shuts all that down instantly, doesn't it? With the amount of time that has transpired, they have had plenty of time to photoshop something good too

I believe the only conspiracy committed, was the one committed by the Bush Administration to prevent a independent commission to investigate what happened.
They stalled the formation of the commission for over 300 days, which is unprecedented. And, when they finally authorized it, they only authorized 3 million dollars.

We spent 10 million on a study on casino gambling in Las Vegas.

We formed an independent commission within days to investigate the shuttle disaster and 50 million was spent on its investigation and a similar sum was spend on investigating the Clinton Administration.

Motive: To hide their incompentence. Nothing more. That is why Bush & Cheney refused to be interviewed seperately.

There is no doubt in my mind, that the neo-cons dropped the ball when it came to protecting us. If it was on purpose or not, will probably never be known.

If it was on purpose, I doubt they knew the specifics. There is no way in hell, Cheney would have the ballz to sit in the White House, Rumsfeld would have the ballz to sit in the Pentagon, and Bush would let his wife walk around in the Congress bldg. while all of this was going on.

Think about it for a minute. Do you really think Rumsfeld would play the odds and sit in his office and count on not being hit? The odds were very good that he would have nothing to sweat, but come on, Rumsfeld is a chicken [censored].

Cheney kept having his enlistment deferred, so there is no way he has the gutz to gamble with his life.

Furthermore, all of the Chiefs of Staff were in the Congress bldg for a meeting.

This conspiracy theory is a little bigger (to put it mildly) than faking the attack of a U.S. ship to begin military action against North Vietnam and start bombing.

Too many people would have to be involved and we all know about the U.S. Govt.'s excellent record of keeping secrets.


HOWEVER: For you who believe it was a conspiracy, a little fuel for the fire. 10 years prior, on 9/11/91 Bush's dad gave a speech to Congress about the New World Order.

Then again, Lincoln's secretary had the last name of Kennedy and Kennedy's secretary had the last name of Lincoln.

I guess it depends on what you make of it.

Unless I am mistaken, recent reports have emerged that FDR and his admin knew Japan was going to strike Pearl Harbor, and seemingly encouraged it.

I think at the end of the day, your line of thinking is probably the most correct. The Bush people dropped the ball. They probably also took a cavalier attitude to the whole thing. "if it happens, that means will be able to do what we wanted to all along."

Just watched this. I would say a good summary would be "skepticism and critical questioning = being a traitor, a lunatic and STFU".


Funny how they kept putting those guys from the magazine up as experts every single time yet they failed to put on demolition experts, pilots, engineers, etc for the 9/11 truth side.

Well that just proves what caused the beams to collapse, doesn't it.

Testimony of engineers and building bangers is all over the place and you know it.

imo not as astounding as the odds against the alternative. a missle into the pentagon while leaders who would be needed to execute the missle conspiracy are still in there?

AND they put debris in the pentagon like the plane's black box. oooookaaaay.

i don't think the govt's main goal is to prove of disprove conspiracy theories. there can be many other reasons to keep the tape top secret. it will all eventually come out though as i think there's a statute of limitations on that kind of stuff being kept under wraps.

umm, did you watch the same film i did? there were police officers from PA and structural engineers who were on the scene and stated that they found debris both from the plane and human. are you going to tell me that first hand accounts are a lie?

i think the absolute worst case scenario is what mosley said, that the govt simply didn't stop it IF they knew about it. i still don't think that is as likely as them knowing about it toolate or not knowing the full scale of the attack or exactly how it would go down (i.e. knew about an attack but couldn't forsee the WTC towers & pentagon being hit).

Barron

No he didn't. Silverstein's actual quote:

To hear from experts from the other side of the fence:


Architects and engineers for 911 truth
http://www.ae911truth.org/

Pilots for 911 truth
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/

To my mind it makes a lot more sense that a conspiracy would come from the private sector--a small group with Saudi ties, a neocon agenda, the certainty of profit from the aftermath, and plenty of high up friends in the administration to stop an investigation from ever getting near them... no shortage of candidates here.

Calum Douglas' presentation from the pilotsfor911truth site is very convincing. I would like to here other people's opinion on the information he presented.

it looks like that site's main claim is about the plane that hit the pentagon. Why would the planners, already having wired the twin towers to blow, also shoot a missile into the pentagon? What is the point of that? Does it not strike you as deeply stupid these conspiracy theories have the planners blowing up WTC 7 and shooting missiles at the pentagon IN ADDITION to blowing up the twin towers?

watch his presentation. He doesn't suggest it was a missle. He is questioning the reported facts and uses data from the NTSB about the crash.

no matter what you can conclude about the likelihood of an inexperienced (or even horrible pilot) hitting the pentagon at a 5degree angle while going 780ft/second, you have to asses the relative likelihood of that conclusion vs. the probability that individuals inside the US govt (who have friends in the pentagon) decided to :

1) fire a missle directly into the pentagon,

2) have a plane fly in that general direction that then dissapears without ever hearing from any of the passengers again (remember that flight was personally witnessed by an air force pilot flying a cargo plane). that menas you'd have to otherwise dispose of the passengers so they don't tell anybody.

3) place debris from a plane AT The scene in the pentagon including pieces of the black box minutes after the missle blew up without anybody who is willing to tell on that person witnessing the placement of debris.

so no matter how unlikely you think it is that a bad pilot could hit the pentagon, all you have to do is realize that it is far more likely than the combined events of the alternative hypothesis conditional on the plane not hitting the pentagon.

you can line up every possible expert in the world to talk about structural issues of towers and planes not being able to be flown by bad pilots and thus not hit the pentagon etc. etc. etc.

but there are facts here. there were 19 hijackers on those planes. two planes hit the WTC towers. two other planes were hijacked.

these are pretty much indisputable. all any rational person has to do is think about what is more likely:

that a) some terrorist organization organized and executed an attack on these united states (with the govt either knowing and letting it happen or not knowing what might happen and letting it happen, or not knowing an attack was coming on 911), that the govt then mishandled investigations, used that attack to invade iraq and overthrow saddam to promote regime change, and pretty much took advanateg of the situation

or b) that the us govt (as inept as it has proved itself on many accounts) organized a precise collapse of towers 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7 without anybody seeing any explosives anywhere prior to the planes hitting, and then execute the detonation from exactly where the planes hit without ex ante knowledge of exactly where they'd hit, shot a missle into the pentagon, make the passangers of that flight that supposed to have crashed dissapear, plant debris from that plane that didn't crash intot he pentagon in the missle hole, shoot down another plane, all while not even trying to protect their family/friends and collegues (who were possibly in building 7 and the pentagon) AND have not a single eye witness to ANY of this stay alive and kicking and willing to talk about any of this.

to me, and i may be of a rare breed on this message board, the choice between a and b is ridiculously easy.

i choose a every day of the week and twice on sunday.

Barron

conspiracy fact and conspiracy theory are 2 COMPLETELY different things

http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html .. why was he in a US hospital ?

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/425822/65851 ... why was the FBI ordered to leave his family alone?

http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...ageISIatta.htm ... why did pakistan wire the lead hijacker 100k in money ????????????????

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/gol...wart_plane_ap/ ... why did the FAA send out fighters jets within 10 minutes to intercept Payne Stewarts private plane when it went off course but took 90 minutes to get fighters jets in the air when 4 plane were hijacked simultaneously with Dick Cheney in charge at the time who had just happened to have most fighter jets out of that area that day ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1559151.stm .. are 6 'hijackers' still alive ? Has the list been updated yet ? this is debateable yes ..

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0208/S00148.htm ... do people not understand the close links between the Bushes and Bin Ladens ??????

http://www.amazon.com/Grand-Chessboa.../dp/0465027261 ... The Bilderberg Group is a group of elite which is above the White House. The man who wrote this book is apart of that group and read the reviews about what this book is about. 4 years before 911, he said the US had to get a foothold in the middle east to control the energy reserves. 10 years later, this is what is happening today.

Multiple warnings of 911 http://www.americanhiroshima.info/911warnings.htm

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0410407/ ... Orwells Rolls in his Grave. You are brainwashed by the media. Read the reviews on this documentary and you will see there is barely any negative reviews.

you're right, this proves the government flawlessly executed or was otherwise involved in the conducting or execution of the attack on sept11.

good detective work.

please let me know when you win the pulitzer for your upcoming work...

or, that the government is involved in many ways with many "conspiracies" of which we know little to nothing about other than what we read or are given to read.

yea, again, gunna have to go with the latter here.

i would wager that the average randomly sampled group of people who believe that the govt planned or sponsored or let 911 happen would do far worse on virtually any kind of probability exam than the same randomly selected average sample of people who don't believe those theories.

in other words, if you randomly sample citizens and ask:

"do you believe with a high degree of certainty that the govt have a hand in planning or executing 911?"

and then give them a 20 question probability test, those who answer no will do way better on that exam than those that answer yes.

anybody wanna take me up on that?

Barron

Very good breakdown of my links. You can discredit people, but you can't discredit the facts.

this is precisely what i'm talking aobut.

you cite facts witnessed, reported, and relayed by people.

then state: "you can discredit people but you can't discredit the facts"

if the facts are relayed by people, then as is logically proved above, you can discridit the facts.

my point is simply that conpiracy theorists tend to be poor logical thinkers and would do badly on probability exams.

Barron

lol

I wish I could shed some light on many of these theories but I'm still bound by a few oaths (carrying severe penalties for breaking).

Without link/source proof would yall believe me If I told you the truth was closer to "most of it was allowed but not assisted" and Flight 93 was dropped but didn't fall?

This is a setup question, right? You're going to make a point about the unreliability of uncheckable rumors?