Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Politics political discourse

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-29-2017, 01:56 PM   #201
batair
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
batair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: fore the rain starts
Posts: 15,889
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien View Post
In the USA, how were the poor taken advantage of?
They get to fight the wars that help protect your wealth.
batair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:00 PM   #202
Tien
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Tien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: INFOWARS ALL DAY
Posts: 6,113
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Yes, a relatively small number of Chinese are lucky enough to have lifestyles that Americans would consider middle class. It doesn't change the fact that their economy is built around exploiting cheap labor.
100 million Chinese are in the middle class. Relatively small compared to its entire population? Yes.

But by 2030 these numbers will explode to about 1/3 of its working population. China only had about what, 20-30 years of economic participation in the global economy?

I used to think 1st world nations were exploiting China, not anymore.
Tien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:03 PM   #203
MrWookie
Don't Call Me Shirley
 
MrWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Treating my drinking problem.
Posts: 85,587
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien View Post
In the USA, how were the poor taken advantage of?

And in China, poor them, from farming rice fields in the 70s to the world's 2nd largest economy and 2nd most powerful country on the planet. I will shed a few tears for them.
Uh, they get paid sub living wages without benefits or even time off or regular schedules thanks to the inherent race to the bottom in the unskilled labor market.
MrWookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:04 PM   #204
raradevils
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
raradevils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: waiting NJ to add more states
Posts: 8,043
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWookie View Post
Uh, they get paid sub living wages without benefits or even time off or regular schedules thanks to the inherent race to the bottom in the unskilled labor market.
Stop buying stuff at Walmart then.
raradevils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:04 PM   #205
JoltinJake
Pooh-Bah
 
JoltinJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,351
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raradevils View Post
Because I earned it. Aren't you allowed to spend the money you earn however you want?
You can give the money to your heirs. Nobody is stopping you, and YOU don't get taxed. Your heirs do.

Just like if you used the money to pay someone to do work for you, that person would get taxed.

Of course, in one situation, someone is doing actual work. And in the other, no work is being done. But you want the work scenario to be taxed and the no work scenario to be tax free because...?
JoltinJake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:06 PM   #206
MrWookie
Don't Call Me Shirley
 
MrWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Treating my drinking problem.
Posts: 85,587
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raradevils View Post
Stop buying stuff at Walmart then.
It's not just Walmart. I would have to go fully off the grid and out of the market to avoid exploited workers.
MrWookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:07 PM   #207
batair
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
batair's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: fore the rain starts
Posts: 15,889
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Even then unless you make all your own tools and clothes...
batair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:11 PM   #208
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 58,398
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raradevils View Post
We don't pay taxes on those here nor cloths. Paying taxes is not one of the things in life that give me pleasure. Do I get pissed about it, no I don't let things like that get me upset, there is little I can do about it anyhow.
huh? so when you buy things you dont have to pay taxes on them? congrats I guess. I think you are drastically overestimating the amount of places where that is the case.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:19 PM   #209
raradevils
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
raradevils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: waiting NJ to add more states
Posts: 8,043
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
huh? so when you buy things you dont have to pay taxes on them? congrats I guess. I think you are drastically overestimating the amount of places where that is the case.
Food (non prepared) and clothing is exempt from taxation here in this state. Don't worry we more than make up for it in property taxes and other fees.
raradevils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:22 PM   #210
raradevils
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
raradevils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: waiting NJ to add more states
Posts: 8,043
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoltinJake View Post
You can give the money to your heirs. Nobody is stopping you, and YOU don't get taxed. Your heirs do.

Just like if you used the money to pay someone to do work for you, that person would get taxed.

Of course, in one situation, someone is doing actual work. And in the other, no work is being done. But you want the work scenario to be taxed and the no work scenario to be tax free because...?
This all started when one poster made a comment that all monies after death should go to the state.
raradevils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:25 PM   #211
bobman0330
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
bobman0330's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 23,436
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoltinJake View Post
You can give the money to your heirs. Nobody is stopping you, and YOU don't get taxed. Your heirs do.

Just like if you used the money to pay someone to do work for you, that person would get taxed.

Of course, in one situation, someone is doing actual work. And in the other, no work is being done. But you want the work scenario to be taxed and the no work scenario to be tax free because...?
Actually, the liability for the gift tax is on the donor!
bobman0330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:31 PM   #212
raradevils
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
raradevils's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: waiting NJ to add more states
Posts: 8,043
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
Actually, the liability for the gift tax is on the donor!
Doesn't that depend on how much it is? Can't each parent give 12.5k without a tax on either person (the giver or receiver)? If done right within the span of a couple of weeks you can give them 50k tax free if done around the end of the year.

Last edited by raradevils; 09-29-2017 at 02:32 PM. Reason: I know it's not millions of dollars
raradevils is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:38 PM   #213
Huehuecoyotl
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Huehuecoyotl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: It's hard to get by on a smile
Posts: 23,795
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

It's a nice flip that goes on there. Of course the children don't "deserve" the money in the capitalist sense of just deserts. They didn't do anything to get it, no goods or services were exchanged. But since the just deserts justification aspect of capitalism can't apply we have to shift the focus to volunteerism. The money is the person's to bestow however they want, regardless of whoever is getting it "deserves" it and all those bad effects of giving money to people who don't deserve it ie. it makes them lazy etc, is conveniently ignored. That won't be the case when it comes to money to the poor in which case those effects would play a prominent role.
Huehuecoyotl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:40 PM   #214
Inso0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Inso0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,021
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

There is a ~$5.5 million lifetime "limit" on gifts without a tax penalty. A certain dollar amount per year can be given and not go against the lifetime limit. I think that annual limit is $14k?

No tax is charged until the lifetime limit is reached, and for most people, gift taxes are never going to be a concern.

So if your rich uncle gives you $14k per year from birth to age 29, on your 30th birthday he could give you $5.5 million and it still wouldn't trigger a tax liability, even though he had given you nearly $6M lifetime.

That's an individual limit, by the way. So if your benefactor is married, your rich uncle and his wife could give you $5.5M and $5.5M "separately" and still not worry about a tax burden.
Inso0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 02:45 PM   #215
champstark
aka starkwired
 
champstark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 13,090
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inso0 View Post
There is a ~$5.5 million lifetime "limit" on gifts without a tax penalty. A certain dollar amount per year can be given and not go against the lifetime limit. I think that annual limit is $14k?

No tax is charged until the lifetime limit is reached, and for most people, gift taxes are never going to be a concern.

So if your rich uncle gives you $14k per year from birth to age 29, on your 30th birthday he could give you $5.5 million and it still wouldn't trigger a tax liability, even though he had given you nearly $6M lifetime.

That's an individual limit, by the way. So if you're benefactor is married, your rich uncle and his wife could give you $5.5M and $5.5M "separately" and still not worry about a tax burden.
Depending on your state you may owe more in gift/estate tax as well.
champstark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 03:01 PM   #216
Zimmer4141
Wet
 
Zimmer4141's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 27,241
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

I am SHOCKED that this turns out to be the case

Zimmer4141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 03:05 PM   #217
Inso0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Inso0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,021
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Tax law is ****ed. I decided to self-study for the CPA, and said, "**** this" right around the Trusts/Estates section of the first 700 page book I tried to read.

I have since decided that I'm comfortable with my current industry-specific knowledge of taxation and accounting, and will leave the CPA certifications to the turbo nerds.
Inso0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 03:05 PM   #218
SuperUberBob
Not interesting enough
 
SuperUberBob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 41,978
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tien View Post
China added hundreds of million of Chinese workers to its middle class in about 2 decades, and many more are joining the ranks every year. The middle class is exploding and the economy is sitting at 11.2 trillion GDP.
lol gtfo

The economy of China requires far more nuance to assess and analyze than what you provide. You can't go high GDP therefore awesome and remain intellectually honest.

You have parts of China that are third world (subsistence farming and factory work), second world (heavy industry and urbanization) and first world (green power and service-based economy) all mixed into one country. Wealth is highly concentrated in large cities on the coastline while inland rural areas are disregarded by the government.

China has no upward mobility for the lower-class. If you're born to subsistence farmers, your future has been predetermined. You don't have the network to get favors to work your way up and you don't have the money to study overseas and get work there.

Nobody will say that live under Mao was better than life now. But to say that China is a country with thriving middle-class is laughable.
SuperUberBob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:11 PM   #219
amoeba
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,938
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

China's economy is certainly not as rosy as Tien stated and there is a plethora of problems.

However, using these problems as an indictment of capitalism as stinkubus has done is equally one sided.


The same problems existed prior to China's move to a market economy except at that point these problems affected 100% of the population.

With regards to exploitation of labor. Every poster here and arguably 95% of the world exploits labor.
amoeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:13 PM   #220
JoltinJake
Pooh-Bah
 
JoltinJake's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 4,351
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman0330 View Post
Actually, the liability for the gift tax is on the donor!
But you're dead. Does it practically matter which return the liability is captured on? Aren't you effectively taxing the heirs in either case?
JoltinJake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:27 PM   #221
amoeba
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,938
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

I personally wouldnt mind a system where income tax was lowered across the board but estate tax and gift tax for anything over say 500,000 be taxed 90% +.
amoeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:27 PM   #222
Tien
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Tien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: INFOWARS ALL DAY
Posts: 6,113
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

China is doing fine. No need for 1st world nations to cry on their behalf. Let China open its own massive wealth vault for its own people. We don't morally owe them anything.
Tien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:30 PM   #223
Inso0
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Inso0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,021
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by amoeba View Post
I personally wouldnt mind a system where income tax was lowered across the board but estate tax and gift tax for anything over say 500,000 be taxed 90% +.
You just haven't spent more than 15 seconds thinking about the countless ways such a system could be exploited.
Inso0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:38 PM   #224
amoeba
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 18,938
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

I am sure there are enforcement issues. My focus is not on the numbers or the details but rather the macro view that on an individual level, labor based income should be taxed less than inherited income if you seek to promote generational economic mobility.
amoeba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2017, 04:38 PM   #225
Paul D
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Paul D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: L.H.O.O.Q.
Posts: 12,839
Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

"It's totally has nothing to do with me buying stuff from Chinese sweatshops. It's their responsibility."

lol tien
Paul D is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online