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Old 09-28-2017, 12:48 PM   #101
hobbes9324
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

i do like 50 tax returns for friends and family in NY and NJ , and just glossing over the schedule A's , this will hurt all of us in these states ,.. it will kill values of SFR in both these states , especially NJ, with its high property tax.

Does look like an enormous "**** you" to NY NJ and California. I know at least 10 docs who work in Nevada (no state income tax) and live in Cal. - we're a 30 minute drive to Truckee in the Sierras. They're about to get an 11% or so bump in their taxes....

Any low/no state tax states in New England?

MM MD
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:03 PM   #102
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

So basically this just widens the gap between the 1% and everybody else.

Who can we call or write to, to get this shot down?
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:10 PM   #103
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by hobbes9324 View Post
i do like 50 tax returns for friends and family in NY and NJ , and just glossing over the schedule A's , this will hurt all of us in these states ,.. it will kill values of SFR in both these states , especially NJ, with its high property tax.

Does look like an enormous "**** you" to NY NJ and California. I know at least 10 docs who work in Nevada (no state income tax) and live in Cal. - we're a 30 minute drive to Truckee in the Sierras. They're about to get an 11% or so bump in their taxes....

Any low/no state tax states in New England?

MM MD
New Hampshire does not have a state income tax.
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Old 09-28-2017, 01:31 PM   #104
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Still not sure what Trump has accomplished for rural Ohio other than providing them an undeserved sense of superiority over minorities, homosexuals, etc.

On the other hand he has tried to take billions in medicaid funding away from them.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:06 PM   #105
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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The problem here is people like my Dad, who's middle class and typically voted conservative throughout his life but hates Trump. Never the less, he represents a voter a little right of center. The most steadfast political take he's had over the years has always been this:

"Sure, the Republicans give tax cuts to the rich, but at least SOMEONE gets SOMETHING."

Which always leaves me trying to explain that if the deficit goes up to give tax cuts to the rich, the value of the dollar goes down and people who didn't get a tax cut actually did worse.

That's a tough argument to make... But trying to explain that they're worse off after getting a $165 tax cut is going to be damn near impossible. You'll hear a lot of, "At least I got something! Better than the Democrats!!!"
Ehh, this is an interesting argument but for the practical purposes of most Americans, $1 = $1.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:08 PM   #106
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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How is it double taxation? In NJ (for state taxation) you can't lower your taxable income by writing off the amount your pay in property taxes.
It's double taxation, in part, because it could theoretically add up to more than 100% of your actual income. Best way to illustrate that... If both taxed you at 51%, without SALT, you'd owe 102% of your income.

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Still not sure what Trump has accomplished for rural Ohio other than providing them an undeserved sense of superiority over minorities, homosexuals, etc.
That's all they ever wanted.

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Stage 5 will be "this plan didn't literally end the world, see, I was right"
Somewhat unrelated aside: I worry that that will be a big rallying cry of the establishment GOP for Trump in 2020. "You guys said it would lead to the end of the world via nuclear war, LOL libtards, we're all still here! TRUMP 2020!"
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:10 PM   #107
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Wookie,

I don't agree that awval is the target. He will pull the lever for whatever POS the GOP throws on the ticket, but he doesn't have enough income to matter re: taxes. Like I'm sure he thinks he pays his marginal rate on his entire income and generally doesn't understand anything. But the GOP isn't going after his income - he doesn't have enough.

The real target, now that they are basically out of other groups to target and have it matter, is their own bread and butter voters, upper middle class white people. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, really any salaried white collar profession. People in the $300k - $700k range. They have a ton of income, but they aren't the donor class. And they are racist as **** and generally incredibly stupid despite their income; the GOP knows they aren't going anywhere. The ballgame, as always, is the mega rich. Hence the pass through rate of 25%. This includes basically any privately held company.
For all of awval's many faults... this is pretty obviously not true.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:11 PM   #108
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Ehh, this is an interesting argument but for the practical purposes of most Americans, $1 = $1.
It's a difficult concept to get most people to understand, and yeah, $1 = $1... But inflation is real and rates of inflation go up when you increase the deficit. The buying power of $1 goes down when we cut taxes in a way that adds to the deficit. So even if your net tax burden does not change, your buying power with the "same" amount of money goes down. Meanwhile, the wealthy people getting the tax cuts have less buying power per dollar, but they have more dollars overall as a result of the tax cuts. Thus, their overall buying power goes up.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:11 PM   #109
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Wookie,

I don't agree that awval is the target. He will pull the lever for whatever POS the GOP throws on the ticket, but he doesn't have enough income to matter re: taxes. Like I'm sure he thinks he pays his marginal rate on his entire income and generally doesn't understand anything. But the GOP isn't going after his income - he doesn't have enough.

The real target, now that they are basically out of other groups to target and have it matter, is their own bread and butter voters, upper middle class white people. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, really any salaried white collar profession. People in the $300k - $700k range. They have a ton of income, but they aren't the donor class. And they are racist as **** and generally incredibly stupid despite their income; the GOP knows they aren't going anywhere. The ballgame, as always, is the mega rich. Hence the pass through rate of 25%. This includes basically any privately held company.
Also, what? The **** are you talking about?
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:15 PM   #110
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

He's got a racist MD for a neighbor. He's posted about them many, many times. I assume he takes his personal experience and extrapolates it to the population at large.

Last edited by stinkubus; 09-28-2017 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Isn't it ironic, don't you think?
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:18 PM   #111
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by hobbes9324 View Post
i do like 50 tax returns for friends and family in NY and NJ , and just glossing over the schedule A's , this will hurt all of us in these states ,.. it will kill values of SFR in both these states , especially NJ, with its high property tax.

Does look like an enormous "**** you" to NY NJ and California. I know at least 10 docs who work in Nevada (no state income tax) and live in Cal. - we're a 30 minute drive to Truckee in the Sierras. They're about to get an 11% or so bump in their taxes....

Any low/no state tax states in New England?

MM MD
As much as I want to defend the $400k doctor crowd, if you want to deserve your $400k you really need to figure out quote tags.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:20 PM   #112
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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It's a difficult concept to get most people to understand, and yeah, $1 = $1... But inflation is real and rates of inflation go up when you increase the deficit. The buying power of $1 goes down when we cut taxes in a way that adds to the deficit. So even if your net tax burden does not change, your buying power with the "same" amount of money goes down. Meanwhile, the wealthy people getting the tax cuts have less buying power per dollar, but they have more dollars overall as a result of the tax cuts. Thus, their overall buying power goes up.
I agree with this, regarding first order effects, but whether more inflation would even be bad generally seems far from a settled question (see: Federal Reserve pretty clearly trying to increase inflation.)
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:45 PM   #113
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Who can we call or write to, to get this shot down?
No one. The 1% basically finances politics, so there's not much you can say to any politician that will speak louder than millions in campaign contributions.
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Old 09-28-2017, 03:59 PM   #114
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Matt Levine summing up awfal's political beliefs in a nutshell in recapping Trump's tax plan:

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Yesterday the Trump administration unveiled a pretty large middle-class tax increase to pay for tax cuts on partnership income and millionaire heirs for some reason, probably populism.
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:06 PM   #115
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

TIL that new cars, family vacations and home renovations cost $1,000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/gary...tax-break.html

Quote:
Middle-income families will see real benefits as a "basic core premise" of the Republican-sponsored tax reform proposal, White House economic advisor Gary Cohn said Thursday.

As an example, Cohn said a family of four with an income of $100,000 a year would see an annual tax savings of about $1,000.

"This is a basic, core premise of our plan. We're committed to it and we're sticking to it," Cohn said at an afternoon news conference.

Cohn said that tax break would up the standard of living for Americans and generate growth.

"If we allow a family to keep another thousand dollars of their income, what does that mean? They can renovate their kitchen, they can buy a new car, they can take their family on vacation, they can increase their lifestyle," he said. "That's what our tax plan has to do."
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:16 PM   #116
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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TIL that new cars, family vacations and home renovations cost $1,000.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/28/gary...tax-break.html
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:28 PM   #117
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Deficit hawks are nowhere in sight as GOP announces $1.5 trillion in tax cuts

Here's a classic case of a GOP congresscritter getting a little too honest about their politics:

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“It’s a great talking point when you have an administration that’s Democrat-led,” said Representative Mark Walker, Republican of North Carolina and the chairman of the Republican Study Committee, a group of about 150 conservative House members. “It’s a little different now that Republicans have both houses and the administration.”
"LOL the time to care about deficits was 2009-2016"
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:32 PM   #118
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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I agree with this, regarding first order effects, but whether more inflation would even be bad generally seems far from a settled question (see: Federal Reserve pretty clearly trying to increase inflation.)
Inflation is clearly bad for people who are not seeing their income rise to match it. If you're lower/middle class, not seeing your income grow and not getting a tax cut, your buying power goes down if there is inflation.

The reason the Fed sometimes tries to increase inflation is to encourage spending and investing. Higher inflation disincentivizes saving and incentivizes spending/investing.
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:40 PM   #119
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

By the way, in reference to the thread title, they may have already screwed this up simply by increasing the lowest bracket from 10 to 12 percent. It forces them into a nuanced argument and gives the Democrats an easy, "They're raising your taxes," position.

Usually the GOP does a better job than the Democrats, in my opinion, of forcing the opposition into making complex, nuanced arguments that bore/confuse most people.
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:49 PM   #120
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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2. This is actually a case where the Democrats have an easy message to make, and the Republicans have to argue nuance:
Democrats: They are literally increasing the tax rate on the poorest and lowering the tax rate on the richest!
Republicans: Actually, when you consider the increase in the standard deduction, the net effect on the average taxpayer earning (whatever) is that their taxes will go down!

I actually think that second message is a totally reasonable point, but the public at large has shown they don't give a **** about Vox-type explanations. So here's a case where the Democratic message is really easy. (I'm sure they'll still screw it up.)
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By the way, in reference to the thread title, they may have already screwed this up simply by increasing the lowest bracket from 10 to 12 percent. It forces them into a nuanced argument and gives the Democrats an easy, "They're raising your taxes," position.

Usually the GOP does a better job than the Democrats, in my opinion, of forcing the opposition into making complex, nuanced arguments that bore/confuse most people.
Your pony spent a full day constructing a complex nuanced argument.
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Old 09-28-2017, 04:53 PM   #121
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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For all of awval's many faults... this is pretty obviously not true.
That was bahbahmickey that thought this.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:05 PM   #122
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Your pony spent a full day constructing a complex nuanced argument.
Whoops. I'm now wondering if my pony replied to your pony yesterday and forgot about it in the haze of this chaotic presidency... I'd go back and check, but I'm running late to head to work.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:13 PM   #123
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

If your family makes $16,000/year in income and you have 3 kids, your tax bill looks like this:

$16,000 income, pay about -$1,600 in payroll taxes, EITC + $6,400

So you end up the year at $20,800...

Get rid of the EITC and you end the year at $14,400

So hopefully they won't get rid of it... that is pretty rough.

It is probably also the difference between being able to buy Christmas presents and pay the rent.

Last edited by OmgGlutten!; 09-28-2017 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:16 PM   #124
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

do they need 50 or 60 votes?
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Old 09-28-2017, 05:21 PM   #125
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Fewer brackets is a joke as a simplification measure. The complexity of the US tax system has almost nothing to do with how many brackets there are.
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