2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right? - Page 34 - Politics and Economics

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2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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11-03-2017 , 03:38 PM

#826

Riverman

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Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 73,135

Study harder, *******s.

11-03-2017 , 03:41 PM

#827

goofyballer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 70,719

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimmer4141

I think you could make an argument that the latter is worse when the gains from those tax increases are being transferred to even richer people.

No, because the alternative isn't "richer people stop getting those gains". They're getting theirs no matter what.

11-03-2017 , 03:44 PM

#828

aflametotheground

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,851

I found a conservative forum to see what they think about things, doesnt look like they are in love with the proposed tax cuts. Some of them says they were hoping for middle class cuts but some defends it. Thats interresting because i thought all the conservatives argued that the rich gets more cuts because they pay more.

11-03-2017 , 03:46 PM

#829

OmgGlutten!

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 5,273

Quote:

Originally Posted by awval999

https://taxfoundation.org/gets-tax-c...cuts-jobs-act/

Can you do a graph for a billionaire and a corporation next please?

Hey, look you got a $240 tax cut. Trumps kids are saving tens of millions. It all evens out.

11-03-2017 , 03:49 PM

#830

OmgGlutten!

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 5,273

Quote:

Originally Posted by aflametotheground

Republican voters vote republican primarily because of racism, sexism and their Christian faith.

They don't believe in any of the other bull**** about how billionaires should get all of the tax cuts or how we have to support a strong Israel.

They would be nearly 100% for whites-only socialism.

11-03-2017 , 03:49 PM

#831

simplicitus

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Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 10,840

Quote:

At times they manage to converge on a policy concept on the basis of pure identity politics and resentment. So they convinced themselves that scrapping the State and Local Tax Deduction is something they can get behind on the theory that it screws over New York and California. It turns out to also screw Utah, and more importantly a few House members in key swing districts in New Jersey and Virginia. But also they needed votes from House members from New York. So then they hit upon maybe modifying SALT so you can deduct property taxes but not income taxes, which more properly narrowcasts the plan as an effort to screw California.

But of course you can’t make conservative tax policy on this basis at all. California-based multinational companies will be huge winners under the GOP tax plan. And a program to raise taxes on the rich and use the proceeds to finance a universal preschool system would be a bonanza for red states. The doomed effort to turn tax policy into a venue for culture war politics just shows that Republicans should stick to what they care about — culture war politics.

Quote:

One of the most pernicious things to happen to the GOP caucus today is that the party’s leaders seem to have convinced the rank-and-file that future electoral success hinges on delivering on the promise of major legislation. Actual Republicans running actual campaigns like Ed Gillespie know that the winning ticket is identity politics for white people and nothing to do with policy.

As far as policy goes, passing unpopular bills is not a great way to be popular. More to the point, every single House Republicans knows perfectly well that they didn’t campaign in 2016 on the promise of some wonky tax reform plan. The campaign was about how Hillary Clinton was a she-devil whose email server was going to get us all killed by Barack Obama’s buddies from ISIS. The chant at the rallies was “lock her up!” not “allow multinational companies to repatriate foreign profits tax free!”

Trump’s there in the West Wing, day after day, talking about how troops and cops are good and Black Lives Don’t Matter and immigrants are terrible (except the good ones) and we’re gonna say Merry Christmas and not be such sensitive snowflakes and celebrate our Confederate generals like all good patriots do. That’s what the party’s all about.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...blicans-change

Yglesias has been en fuego lately.

Last edited by simplicitus; 11-03-2017 at 03:55 PM.

11-03-2017 , 03:51 PM

#832

goofyballer

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Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 70,719

Quote:

Originally Posted by awval999

Did you read the article? Or just immediately dismiss the graph?

Your link doesn't work, did they take that article down? lol

11-03-2017 , 04:00 PM

#833

DudeImBetter

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Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 10,664

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zimmer4141

Circling back to Avwal's Tax Foundation Article.

LOOOOOOL How many single dudes out there making $30k Gross/year are stashing away $2600 a year in their 401(k)?

Literally none.

11-03-2017 , 04:12 PM

#834

simplicitus

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I heard about this dude in Utah...

11-03-2017 , 04:15 PM

#835

Namath12

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Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 55,849

Quote:

Originally Posted by Namath12

Yeah maybe but unborn children will be explicitly eligible for 529 college savings plans to counter that absurdity.

This wasn't a joke btw

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/sta...28061239111682

Gives them more ammo when Roe v. Wade Electric Boogaloo hits SCOTUS

11-03-2017 , 04:30 PM

#836

aflametotheground

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,851

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmgGlutten!

Probably the most important factor isnt even mentioned here.

11-03-2017 , 06:10 PM

#837

aflametotheground

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,851

off topic delete

Last edited by aflametotheground; 11-03-2017 at 06:30 PM.

11-03-2017 , 08:17 PM

#838

Paul McSwizzle

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,531

Quote:

Originally Posted by vaya

Inflation helps people who are in debt and hurts people who have lots of money. That's why the government works so hard to prevent it and the media fear mongers about it. If tomorrow the government printed enough money to give to every middle class and below enough to pay off their debts the average American would be far better off then they are today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awval999

I literally ran the numbers.

It’s a small tax benefit.

However, it was probably not worth risking the end of our species in voting TRUMP tho.

Probably not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raradevils

Yes I know. We should just let the gov't confiscate everything upon death and redistribute it

This would be better than what we do now. I guess the Kardashians wouldn't like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlyWf

This is objectively better policy than either current law or the GOP proposal

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Looks like another hidden bonus in this bill is to tax tuition remittance as income, meaning a typical PhD student on a 20k research stipend gets taxed like a person making 50k. Congratulations, GOP, you have ended graduate school.

Yikes.

11-04-2017 , 01:29 AM

#839

6ix

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 4,783

Quote:

Originally Posted by awval999

It just doesn't make political sense.

I almost believe, that they actually want to be a minority party. Easier to throw bombs and say "NO!" than govern.

Like literally, do they think people won't notice the 401k changes or the SALT deductions being gone? Like they won't notice come January their paychecks get lower?

The business tax cuts they can "hide". Want jobs. Business to grow. Blah blah. The vast majority of people don't see a business tax return. Whatever.

But the 401ks? ****ing around with itemized deductions. It's like ripping out the heart of the upper-middle (for Victor, the lower-middle) class who will vote those ****ers out. I mean, honestly, the deplorables probably won't even vote in the midterms without Trump on the top of the ticket. You are relying on the suburban/exurban soccer moms and dads to vote GOP for taxes during the midterms. And like you are literally raising taxes on incomes $75-$300k.

maybe they'll think MAGA is worth it

11-04-2017 , 09:28 AM

#840

sportsjefe

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https://twitter.com/RadioFreeTom/sta...58674851680256

11-04-2017 , 01:34 PM

#841

Lawnmower Man

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 4,484

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

And anyone whose grinded through graduate work in the hard sciences knows there's another factor here too:

Quote:

Overall, [STEM] programs have the highest percentage of international students of any broad academic field. In the fall of 2015, about 55 percent of all graduate students in mathematics, computer sciences and engineering were from abroad, according to a survey by the Council of Graduate Schools and the Graduate Record Examinations Board.

The dearth of Americans is even more pronounced in hot STEM fields like computer science, which serve as talent pipelines for the likes of Google, Amazon, Facebook and Microsoft: About 64 percent of doctoral candidates and almost 68 percent in master’s programs last year were international students, according to an annual survey of American and Canadian universities by the Computing Research Association.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/03/e...dent-stem.html

I guess this could go one of many ways assuming stipend pool money is fixed in the short term. My gut says domestic students would be the group less likely to apply to graduate school due to the changes, and we could even see a move where the funds are distributed to fewer (read: the best) candidates. In other words, the international student concentration might become even higher, which would be an amazing outcome given the MAGAtts would be super frothy about it.

11-04-2017 , 01:57 PM

#842

Huehuecoyotl

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 29,257

Quote:

On Thursday, House Republicans issued a fact sheet about their new tax cut plan that referred to Americans earning $450,000 a year as “low- and middle-income” — even though that income level would put those taxpayers in the*top 0.5*percent of all individual Americans.

http://www.newsweek.com/tax-cuts-rep..._medium=Social

11-04-2017 , 03:02 PM

#843

goofyballer

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Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 70,719

Twitter thread on one of the pernicious aspects of the GOP tax plan: eliminating an adoption credit

Cliffs: Adoption is really, really expensive (think 30-50k) and doesn't come on a payment plan, often requires taking out a second mortgage, and that can often only be stomached knowing you'll get tens of thousands coming back from the tax credit.

The GOP bill removes it.

11-04-2017 , 03:09 PM

#844

Loden Pants

adept

Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,082

I used the list from this link (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...n-in-one-chart) posted earlier to match up the tax increases and cuts, starting with the largest increase paying for the largest cut, and came up with this (numbers in billions):

Code:

Personal exemptions pays Corporations $1500
Personal exemptions pays Individuals $100
Deficit pays Individuals $1000
Deficit pays Standard deduction $488
Itemized deductions pays Standard deduction $433
Itemized deductions pays AMT $696
Itemized deductions pays Child tax credit $171
Base erosion pays Child tax credit $287
One-time overseas earnings pays Child tax credit $182
One-time overseas earnings pays Pass through $41
Reduce interest deduction pays Pass through $172
Reduce carryover of net operating losses pays Pass through $156
Domestic production pays Pass through $79
Domestic production pays Territorial foreign taxes $16
Other corporate tax increases pays Territorial foreign taxes $79
Higher education pays Territorial foreign taxes $68
Orphan drug pays Territorial foreign taxes $44
Orphan drug pays Heirs $10
Other individual tax increases pays Heirs $41
Insurance companies pays Heirs $40
Private activity bonds pays Heirs $39
Certain exclusions pays Heirs $37
Entertainment expenses pays Heirs $5
Entertainment expenses pays Small business writeoffs $28
Like-kind exchange real estate tax deferral pays Small business writeoffs $13
Like-kind exchange real estate tax deferral pays Full expensing of deductions $18
Executive compensation pays Full expensing of deductions $7
Executive compensation pays Other business tax breaks $22

Looking at just the individual taxes:

Code:

Personal exemptions pays Individuals $1100
Personal exemptions pays Standard deduction $500
Itemized deductions pays Standard deduction $421
Itemized deductions pays AMT $696
Itemized deductions pays Child tax credit $183
Deficit pays Child tax credit $457
Deficit pays Heirs $26
Higher education pays Heirs $68
Other individual tax increases pays Heirs $41
Certain exclusions pays Heirs $37

And just the business taxes:

Code:

Deficit pays Corporations $1005
Base erosion pays Corporations $287
One-time overseas earnings pays Corporations $208
One-time overseas earnings pays Pass through $15
Reduce interest deduction pays Pass through $172
Reduce carryover of net operating losses pays Pass through $156
Domestic production pays Pass through $95
Other corporate tax increases pays Pass through $10
Other corporate tax increases pays Territorial foreign taxes $69
Orphan drug pays Territorial foreign taxes $54
Insurance companies pays Territorial foreign taxes $40
Private activity bonds pays Territorial foreign taxes $39
Entertainment expenses pays Territorial foreign taxes $5
Entertainment expenses pays Small business writeoffs $28
Like-kind exchange real estate tax deferral pays Small business writeoffs $13
Like-kind exchange real estate tax deferral pays Full expensing of deductions $18
Executive compensation pays Full expensing of deductions $7
Executive compensation pays Other business tax breaks $22

So the individuals are getting $483B, and corporations/businesses are getting $1005B. Most of the other tinkering with the corporate side is consolidating loopholes into the the pass through and the territorial system for foreign taxes. On the individual side, the largest part of the tinkering is meaningless tinkering (deductions<->exemptions), with the next largest part being Blue state ****ing, and then the grab bag of goodies going to the Heirs.

11-04-2017 , 07:01 PM

#845

Praetor1an

journeyman

Join Date: Sep 2017 Posts: 251

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Twitter thread on one of the pernicious aspects of the GOP tax plan: eliminating an adoption credit

A lot of dirty foreigners come into the country thru adoption.

11-04-2017 , 07:09 PM

#846

AllTheCheese

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Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 11,898

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrWookie

Mother of God, that is some midnight evil **** right there.

11-04-2017 , 07:34 PM

#847

spidercrab

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 3,206

The tuition/stipend thing is unclear to me. I'm very interested in the topic (since I'm in education), but it's not clear to me which of the two following it is:
1) any waived tuition (e.g., things that would typically be considered scholarships) will now be considered taxable income

2) any waived tuition explicitly in exchange for research assistance or other work will now be considered taxable income

I think both are bad, but the second can be engineered around. I believe that at my school, tuition is technically waived in exchange for research assistance. But I suspect it would be pretty trivial to just say, "If we admit you, we're waiving tuition." and have that go tax free.

11-04-2017 , 07:37 PM

#848

MrWookie

Don't Call Me Meredith

Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 94,159

Quote:

Originally Posted by spidercrab

As discussed in the Twitter stream, many states have laws that the state school cannot set tuition at zero, even if the waiver is granted. Private schools could more easily work around this, but this kills graduate students at most public schools.

11-04-2017 , 08:31 PM

#849

JoltinJake

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 5,236

Quote:

Originally Posted by goofyballer

Man, that is ****ed up. Apparently the credit is for ~$13,500. That's significant, and seems like good policy to me. Without the credit, it's a lock there will be fewer adoptions, and the amount the state pays to keep a child in foster care has to be way higher than that. Never mind that it's worse for the child.

Also noteworthy that the adoption credit is only available for people with MAGI under ~$250,000. So this is literally taking money away from middle class families who adopt children to fund tax cuts for rich people.