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Old 09-27-2017, 02:56 PM   #26
TheHip41
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hacksaw JD View Post
josh barro tweeted that a single person with no kids making $19k a year would see a $6 tax cut. SIX DOLLARS.
to be fair, that person isn't paying a lot of tax to start with

percentages would be a better number to compare
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:57 PM   #27
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Getting rid of SALT deductions will never happen, so this is DOA as written. No one will vote for that--it's political suicide.
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Old 09-27-2017, 02:58 PM   #28
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

SSI and Medicare taxes aren't effected by raising the standard deduction, right? Poors getting hosed bigly my friends, bigly
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:00 PM   #29
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

1. Reducing the number of tax brackets is trivially stupid, with no real effect on anyone's effort. Taxes are not hard to do because we have to integrate under a curve of continuously-increasing rates.

2. This is actually a case where the Democrats have an easy message to make, and the Republicans have to argue nuance:
Democrats: They are literally increasing the tax rate on the poorest and lowering the tax rate on the richest!
Republicans: Actually, when you consider the increase in the standard deduction, the net effect on the average taxpayer earning (whatever) is that their taxes will go down!

I actually think that second message is a totally reasonable point, but the public at large has shown they don't give a **** about Vox-type explanations. So here's a case where the Democratic message is really easy. (I'm sure they'll still screw it up.)

3. No more state and local tax deduction is a LOL middle finger at blue states and large cities. I don't think there's any way that that sticks.

4. Estate tax repeal because of course. This of course means that they should end the step up of cost basis on assets transferred at death, but of course they won't.

5. As mentioned above, eliminating refundable tax credits (e.g., EITC) is a huge **** you to people.

Paul Ryan policy genius, though.

Edit: A legitimately good idea, based on the Vox summary:

Quote:
Companies would face a limit on how much debt they can deduct from their taxable income, a significant change for highly leveraged companies like banks; Mnuchin had signaled skepticism about this provision, which makes its inclusion a little surprising. Interest deductibility wouldn’t go away completely however.
[Obviously it should say "how much interest they can deduct" not "how much debt they can deduct".] No way that actually happens, though. LOL at banks saying yes to not being able to deduct interest.

Last edited by spidercrab; 09-27-2017 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:08 PM   #30
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

This is a pretty good read about the potential impacts of this plan.

https://politicsofpoverty.oxfamameri...-for-the-poor/

The biggest takeaway for me is that this will contribute to income inequality by giving corporations a massive windfall and effectively rewarding them for tax evasion.

The nice thing about this group (Oxfam) is that it looks at stuff like this from a global perspective, which is an important part of the discussion.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:12 PM   #31
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorKeeed View Post
SSI and Medicare taxes aren't effected by raising the standard deduction, right? Poors getting hosed bigly my friends, bigly
Payroll taxes are a separate tax.

The only deduction from gross pay to FICA-taxable are employer based health care/dental plan contributions.

6.2% for SS on earned incomes up to $127,200
1.45% for Medicare on all earned income
Total 7.65% for the employee.

The employer matches an additional 7.65% for a total 15.3%.

To be fair these aren't really taxes, but an earned benefit.

(There is a small ACA/Obamacare Medicare tax on capital gains, on incomes >$250k, it's not worth mentioning).
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:14 PM   #32
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

It does away with the Alternative Minimum Tax, naturally.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:18 PM   #33
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Someone please post a link where the earned income tax credit being rescinded.

It's just not true.

It wasn't in the 2016 GOP House Congressional plan. I don't see it being reported today. This plan is nearly the same as Ryan's A Better Way plan. Even he didn't cut the EITC.

Quote:
The House Republican tax plan contains a number of significant base broadeners. Eliminating all itemized deductions except for the mortgage interest deduction and the charitable deduction would significantly broaden the income tax base and raise about $2.3 trillion over the next decade.[2] In addition, the plan would eliminate most individual credits, except for the Child Tax Credit, the Earned Income Tax Credit, and the American Opportunity Tax Credit. This would raise an additional $104 billion over the next decade.
Quote:
Earned Income Tax Credit
The Blueprint will continue the earned income tax credit (EITC), which rewards work by low-income individuals, encouraging them to enter the workforce and have the opportunity to move up the income scale. The Committee on Ways and Means will continue to work to reform the EITC to reduce fraud and erroneous overpayments. In addition, the Committee will develop options for providing a more effective and efficient incentive to work.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:22 PM   #34
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by DeuceKicker View Post
It does away with the Alternative Minimum Tax, naturally.
The alternative minimum tax disproportionally effects taxpayers in high taxed blue states with large mortgages and large state-local tax deductions.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:24 PM   #35
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Like the Trump family?
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:25 PM   #36
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Some context for any new tax plan

Quote:
America's top 1% now control 38.6% of the nation's wealth, a historic high, according to a new Federal Reserve Report.

The Federal Reserve's Surveys of Consumer Finance shows that Americans throughout the income and wealth ladder posted gains between 2013 and 2016. But the wealthy gained the most, driven largely by gains in the stock market and asset values.

The top 1% saw their share of wealth rise to 38.6% in 2016 from 36.3% in 2013. The next highest nine percent of families fell slightly, and the share of wealth held by the bottom 90% of Americans has been falling steadily for 25 years, hitting 22.8% in 2016 from 33.2% in 1989.

The top income earners also saw the biggest gains. The top 1% saw their share of income rise to a new high of 23.8% from 20.3% in 2013. The income shares of the bottom 90% fell to 49.7% in 2016.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/27/the-...he-wealth.html
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:26 PM   #37
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
Someone please post a link where the earned income tax credit being rescinded.

It's just not true.

It wasn't in the 2016 GOP House Congressional plan. I don't see it being reported today. This plan is nearly the same as Ryan's A Better Way plan. Even he didn't cut the EITC.
This is fair. I'm basing my comment on this Washington Post story:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.e572f4a56435

Quote:
Top Republican officials have not decided what to do with the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC), which is widely used by the working poor to help them reduce their tax bill and even get a small amount of money back from the government.
But you're right in that I haven't seen an explicit commitment to end the EITC. I do, however, think it's infinitely more likely the EITC gets cut than interest expense becomes non-deductible.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:28 PM   #38
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

I didn't see the EIC on the tax document i read, i stated that pretty clearly that I don't know that its gone, but what i do know is they didn't specifically state is isn't gone (like they did with Mort Int), and later they said we are getting rid of other credits.

I'm using the track record of the R's + logic to determine the EIC is part of the group thats getting cut.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:28 PM   #39
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Old 09-27-2017, 03:29 PM   #40
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by stinkubus View Post
Like the Trump family?
No one has seen Trump's taxes.

In general, the alternative minimum tax liability is gone once the taxpayer hits the 35% and the 39.6% tax bracket because the AMT is 26%/28% and eventually the "regular" tax brackets have higher taxes than the parallel AMT tax brackets.

I do believe there a leaked Trump tax return where he paid AMT. But I believe that was due to large "reportable losses". Business AMT tax is so far out of my knowledge base it's something I cannot reasonably discuss. For an owned business like Trump's you'd have to see both his Personal and Business tax records to really get a good pictures on the tax strategies.

And obviously, we aren't going to see them.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:31 PM   #41
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
It could actually be worse the other way. If they cut credits like EIC and other poor people subsidies
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:31 PM   #42
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
No one has seen Trump's taxes.

In general, the alternative minimum tax liability is gone once the taxpayer hits the 35% and the 39.6% tax bracket because the AMT is 26%/28% and eventually the "regular" tax brackets have higher taxes than the parallel AMT tax brackets.

I do believe there a leaked Trump tax return where he paid AMT. But I believe that was due to large "reportable losses". Business AMT tax is so far out of my knowledge base it's something I cannot reasonably discuss. For an owned business like Trump's you'd have to see both his Personal and Business tax records to really get a good pictures on the tax strategies.

And obviously, we aren't going to see them.

heres some logic


TrumpS tax plan eliminates AMT

therefore, Trump pays AMT
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:33 PM   #43
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Anything wrong with this analysis?
It's mathematically correct, but we don't yet know the tax brackets so it's not giving the full picture.

But that person with $19k in income doesn't really pay much individual income taxes to begin with. They pay FICA taxes. They additionally receive the earned income tax credit. Which is really a "credit" for working. It's a refundable credit that goes above an beyond what that person paid in income taxes. They would have a "negative" tax liability.
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Old 09-27-2017, 03:36 PM   #44
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHip41 View Post
heres some logic


TrumpS tax plan eliminates AMT

therefore, Trump pays AMT
Under current 2017 law it would be hard to believe that the President pays AMT.

Quote:
AMTI level of complete phase-out: Because the AMT exemption phase-out is controlled by the amount of the exemption for a filing status and the amount that AMTI exceeds the phase-out threshold for that filing status, there is a common AMTI level where the exemption for each filing status phases out completely for all taxpayers in the filing status. The exemption phases out completely at the following levels of AMTI in 2016:


AMTI
Single or Head of Household
$335,300
Married Filing Jointly or Surviving Spouse
$494,900
Married Filing Separately
$247,450
http://amtadvisor.com/AMT_Exemption.html
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:00 PM   #45
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
Taxes: TOO EARLY TO CALL
Haven't looked at this much at all, I'm going to go with that it's horrible based solely on the fact that Trump and the GOP are the ones proposing it.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:05 PM   #46
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by eyebooger View Post
Haven't looked at this much at all, I'm going to go with that it's horrible based solely on the fact that Trump and the GOP is proposing it.
Well, they will pass some sort of tax bill.

It again, will all depend on the Senate.

They probably will start with a hard right Paul Ryan-esq plan with all of the goodies (repealing the Estate Tax, 35% top marginal rate, et al). It may fail with some of the moderate GOPs voting no, or even the deficit hawks voting no.

But eventually they will pass something.

Even if it's just moar child tax credits, cutting the 15% bracket down to 10% and leaving all the hodgepodge of deductions the same.

Cutting taxes before an election year is like Politics 101.

It would be astonishing if they fail at this.
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:27 PM   #47
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
Under current 2017 law it would be hard to believe that the President pays AMT.



http://amtadvisor.com/AMT_Exemption.html
YEAH MAYBE IF THE PRESIDENT WASNT MAKING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF THE PRESIDENCY

COME ON MAN
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:27 PM   #48
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

I favor a plan where everyone get s a 5% across the board cut, but you can risk it all for a spin at the "Big Wheel."
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:41 PM   #49
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

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Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
It's mathematically correct, but we don't yet know the tax brackets so it's not giving the full picture.
Yeah, if the bottom bracket jumps up from 10 to 12% you'll save $198 in that scenario.

Of course you'll also end up paying an extra ~$160 in taxes on the remaining $8k so...
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Old 09-27-2017, 04:49 PM   #50
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Re: 2017 "Tax Reform": They'll Screw This Up Too, Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
Well, they will pass some sort of tax bill.

It again, will all depend on the Senate.

They probably will start with a hard right Paul Ryan-esq plan with all of the goodies (repealing the Estate Tax, 35% top marginal rate, et al). It may fail with some of the moderate GOPs voting no, or even the deficit hawks voting no.

But eventually they will pass something.

Even if it's just moar child tax credits, cutting the 15% bracket down to 10% and leaving all the hodgepodge of deductions the same.

Cutting taxes before an election year is like Politics 101.

It would be astonishing if they fail at this.
this is even more true this year with their large donors threatening to pull fundraising money from them, coupled with their failure to repeal the ACA. something will pass.
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