Good questions.

The deception part was always a little murky. I had other people getting me accounts most of the time so it wasnt like Id have to physically put on a disguise or anything. But I was always worried about getting caught through my bets and getting my contact in trouble which kind of did happen once.

It would usually go something like this: Id get an acct either by myself or through a friend/partner. Id find a JOKE of an account, something with a glaring error (and almost all PPHs have one if you look hard enough) and use it until I got the boot. Then that acct would bury itself in my mind like a bug. I needed to get back on. So Id look for other people who knew the guy and get an acct from them...maybe Id tell them about my past with them, maybe not. That could get murky honestly. Cuz when youre the only guy betting 50 props a night on his entire board, you stick out. Then when he kicks you out and sees another prop guy a few weeks later, you could be in a little trouble. Lol I had one guy that I honestly abused for like 5 years. He always had the best accounts and Id constantly find ways back on. Hed send little half ass threats my way but nothing ever happened. It never did, honestly, to anyone.

There was one time though that this happened where I did actually get nervous for my friend. I had a good friend who dabbled in this with me and was a perfect connect. Popular guy, friendly normal people person but with a dollop of degen in him. He got me this weird one off account with massive limits from some guy Ive never heard of. It went fine for a while until I met this random sharp guy online who bet straights. He was a legit crusher. We shared this account and the straight bets did unreal one week.

My friend meets the bookie in a parking lot like they normally do but this guy makes him get in his car with him. He had the envelope in his hand and was like 'ill give you this but you need to tell me whos betting on the account, I know it isnt you.' He then goes on to say that theres a network of professionals all betting the same plays on a huge network of local accounts and they wanted to find him. My friend said he was shitting himself the whole time.

To be perfectly honest it was so long ago and there have been so many things like it that I forget exactly how we got out of it but I do know that we got paid, pretty sure the full amount.

Ill continue in another post since this is getting long

As for the rest of your question, like Ive said before, I never once saw or even heard of a violent act happening because of gambling debts, and I would have heard of it if it happened. I heard stories from old timers about it and maybe theyre true but I doubt it. Tons of threats but nothing really happened.

I do have a good story about this though. I got stiffed by like 3 people (keno bob being one of them) all pretty close together and got sick of it. One was particualrly offensive. Some kid I knew was betting with me, lost and was basically like 'lol come get it.' I thought about doing something myself and its easy to imagine that you would do something, but when you really sit down and think about the logistics of something like that, it isnt an easy thing to pull off. You need a special kinda person and that kinda thing aint really my style.

So I was talking to an agent ive worked with forever who had a maaaassive book. He mentioned to me once (prob to scare me) that he had "guys" he met in the gym who were psychos and had no problem doing this stuff. So turns out he wasnt lying and gave me this dudes number. We arrange a meeting at a dunkin donuts. I bring a piece of paper with all the info on it. I walk in and its empty except for two guys sitting in a booth. And Im telling you without exaggerating even a tiny bit, they were two of the most dead-eyed, scary looking MFers ive ever seen and Ive seen a lot. They werent big, they were just scary. Knuckle tattoos and just these dead effin eyes. So we start talking.

I explain my situation, say what I do and what I need them to do, etc. I kept mentioning a bunch of times that I had other people that owed me money all the time and I always would, in other words 'I'll have more work for you guys in the future as long as you dont collect my money for me and keep it'. So they go on to tell me that it wasnt like the old days, you couldnt just punch someone in the head anymore (I remember those exact words.) He goes, we'll scare the **** out of anyone you want but honestly we're not actually gonna hit anyone. And he said that just scaring people works almost all the time anyway. That was perfect for me. They said they usually took 50% of whatever they collected but they would do me a deal and do it for 45. I said sure.

So they end up doing exactly what they said they would. They walked right into this guys job like it was nothing lol. He called me almost in tears. I was just like you owe these guys now, have fun. They worked out a plan, he paid it off and they gave me my cut. I sent them after one other guy but they never found him and last I heard one of them hurt his back real bad or something. lol as im typing this out I cant believe I did some of this stuff. It doesnt seem so crazy when youre in it though.

As far as my biggest exposure, nothing that would shock you. Less than a 5 figures. Ive 'shocking' amounts of money at risk in a given day but nothing on a single thing. Prob the biggest were the Pats/Atl super bowl and Pats/Seattle super bowl and you can imagine how those went for me.

Ive had five figure weeks, up and down. The first time I made 5 figures in a week I took my girl and a bunch of a friends to Foxwoods all on me. Got a table at Shrine and everything, all paid in cash. That was sick (but SUCH a ridiculous waste of money.)

My close friends all knew what I was doing since I had half of them involved anyway so the amounts didnt shock them. And the people I know who dont know what I do, I never tell them anything about it since people who dont get it really dont get it. One time I was coming home from a skiing trip with some 'normie' friends and had to make a pick up on the way home with them with me. They asked how much I was picking up and I said 7k just matter of factly and they were like whaaaatttt. They were shocked at the whole thing, a stranger just handing me 7k in a parking lot like it was nothing. You forget how weird it all is, really.

Lastly, one thing Ive learned HARD is that girls. hate. gambling. They just hate it. Sometimes they kinda get it but even then, the whole thing they just hate. When Id travel and meet girls Id tell them I was a day trader. They always loved that. But when you say 'im a professional sports bettor' you can literally see them dry up when the words 'bettor' finishes. My girl now knows what I do and gets it but even she really doesnt like it. Its fine with me, I like having this semi secret weird other world im a part of

No I wouldnt call it a pain. I actually used to kind of like it. Theres a weird little rush you get when a guy hands you this envelope over filling with cash, no matter how many times you do it. You sit there waiting for him, its a little sketchy, youre not sure if hes coming. You finally see his car. I dunno, as a bookie I HATED it, but as a player I liked it. Lot of these bookies were these kinda fake tough guys, mob wanna bes and it felt good out smarting these 'street smart' guys. Plus I was young, early 20s so I went at everything with gusto. It doesnt take that long if you run it right. Try to get everything done in one or two days if you can. Also after a while with trust you roll lots of weeks so you only meet up once a month or so

I was in vegas for a little less than a year. It really more of an adventure than anything else. I was optimistic but I knew that my chances of returning were like 99%.

I drove out there with my really good friend/roommate at the time who wasnt in gambling at all but could work remotely and was down for an adventure. We drove a Uhaul cross country, stopped in Detriot where my friend was going to grad school and went to the Lions Pats Thanksgiving game. (side note, detriot lions fans are the saddest, most beat down fans ive ever encountered.) We had a friends-giving and hung out in detriot for a few nights. Then we stopped in the Rockies and actually skiied the Rockies the next day for a half day (climbing those snowy hills at night towing a U haul was something Ill never forget).

I could talk forever about las vegas. But long story short, it wasnt at all what I expected. I went there more for poker but I found out quick that I wasnt nearly as good at poker as I thought. And betting in Vegas sucks. The juice is high, props were almost impossible to find and when you do, what then? You have to do all your projections beforehand and bring them with you...it just didnt work for me. I was doing most of my betting with PPH books back home while in vegas. Plus I found it to be a very sad place. Just lots of sad people around that you see every day. Old alone people just dumping money into slots at 3 am. It wore on me after a while. Plus I couldnt meet any girls at all. I dunno...I wasnt really ready for it I dont think. I was getting a few grand every month from a bodog account so money was never a problem. I basically broke even while there with all my expenses. I could go into the whole vegas trip a lot more if you guys want.

As for offshore books, I used bodog as much as I could. Got 3 accounts banned there. Other than that, I just havent had much use for them. Ive always more than enough soft PPH accounts. I also hate depositing, hate the deposit fees, I hate having my money just sitting there and I always thought itd get taken away by something shady. I just love PPHs, the credit aspect is huge of course but the little glitches that I exploit are really my bread and butter and you cant get away with that stuff offshore

I just thought of one quick funny story you guys will like.

I once had an account with a friend acting as the bettor, which is my normal set up. He was in florida though so he had to send me cash in the mail in boxes. Well one day I get the box and its all trash inside. Im tearing everything apart looking for the dough but cant find it. I finally call him and say hey this box has nothing but trash in it. Hes quiet for a second. Then he goes...oh ****. I think I mixed up the boxed and threw yours in THE TRASH! Im like come on dude!

So he sprints down to his companys trash room and rifles through everything and lo and behold, actually found it right before it got picked up. That was pretty funny.

That account ended up being amazing but when I got the boot I got stiffed for the last week. Kinda soured things with my friend actually. I think ill reach out to him, he didnt do anything wrong.



How are you guys liking this so far? Any comments on the well thus far?

This is a fantastic thread.

Solid well. That last post reminded me of when I was moving, and I'd waited till the last day to be out of my apartment, and so I was exhausted from loading up my car with all my belongings and chucking stuff I didn't want in the dumpster. Now it was like 10:00 at night, and I'm just about to leave, when for some reason it occurs to me that I had like three grand tucked in my spare bed sheets. These were the very bed sheets I'd decided to chuck in the dumpster about an hour ago. So I get a flashlight and climb up on the dumpster. Thank god the sheets were right near the top and the money was still wadded together. I'd have been so sad if the bills had spilled out and I'd needed to go rooting through a ****ing dumpster at night just as I'm ready to leave. It is a nice feeling though to pull that money out. Sorry for the derail.

thanks guys. keep the questions coming or requests for stories, whatever you want. Ill keep doing this as long as you guys want

Like, I got a little story. Nothing too exciting but I wonder if you ran across anything similar.
When I lived some years in Germany, I was befriended with some guys who ran those legal books over there. Usually a small coffee shop like place where you can go make wagers. I was a clueless noob by the way.
So, my buddie was complaining about this guy who was crushing him. I suggested maybe he should copy his wagers then, eager for myself to get in on the action. My friend sort of stayed silent.
Some time later, I asked how did he handle it? He said he took his action and booked it at another book.
You encounter anything similar to that?

Good stuff.

So true that just the threat of harm is usually enough and while you're doing certain things they seem perfectly reasonable, but looking back.....not so much.

Fun thread.

Yea thats just called laying off. Super standard

A bet you made that you felt was very clever and required some high-level thinking

A bet you made that you thought was sharp and later realised a very dumb error in your thinking

Thats hard to say. Im not sure if what I do is different than what most people do, but my general approach is to bet lots of props quickly. So individual bets dont really stand out to me.

Off the top of my head though, really early on I middled a team total. Had over 13.5 and under 14.5 points. That was my first real middle where I had max bets on each side.

Ive had an in forever with an agent that gets me the same skins that all have this same glitch; they let you buy through the 7 for 10c. So games that are heavy 7.5s or 6.5s, Ill buy through the 7 and then buy back the other side with pinnacle. So Ill have something like +7.5 -130 and -6.5 at plus odds. When those games land on 7 its awesome but that certainly doesnt require high level thinking.

Id say that the actual betting things Im most proud of in my 'career' are some of my excel models for props. The hockey one in particular. I started with not even knowing how to work excel and knowing next to nothing about probability or modeling and ended up making a really good nhl prop model that I used for years and still do. It was a lot of reading and trial and error. I came up with the entire logic for it by scratch mostly, piecing together different things from different sources. It spits out SOG and expected goals and assists. I dont have anywhere to bet them this year but I always dust if off come playoff time and always kill it.

The other one Im proud of is my NBA player prop model. That one is more complicated and takes forever to use but it wins just as good as my hockey one. Discovering how important pace is and how to incorporate it into my model was huge. But I love hockey as a sport more than NBA so I have a soft spot for the hockey model.


As far as bad bets, there have been plenty. Pretty much every future bet ive ever made has been a mistake, either because of tying up credit or getting free rolled when/if I lose the account. Also losing tons of money betting fangraphs MLB win total projections early on was a slap in the face.

Im lifetime positive on every prop Ive ever spent time on except for a few. Yes/No Home runs I took a bath on a couple years ago. I found this long, fancy looking formula from fangraphs that was supposed to be a xHR thing and tried applying it to betting but it never worked. Pitcher Strikeouts was one of my best subsets until this year when I got destroyed (thanks sigs). I actually gave up on them mid season which Ive never done before Im also down on field goals for NFL. Everything else I do pretty good in though, especially sacks.

Great well, keep em coming

What is the process of getting kicked off an account both pph and offshore

Do you always get your money? Are there warning signs? How do you get another account? Are there identification or ip/geolocation aspects you need to deal with?

Oh. Like I said, I'm a clueless noob!
Thanks

In my experience, the process for offshore is usually that you get limited, not necessarily kicked out. So one day you go to bet your usual max 300 on a prop and youll get a message saying "limit is 25 for this market" or something similar. I dont think Ive actually been kicked out off of an offshore acct, but they limit me to 25 or 50 on props which is basically the same thing. One time I actually did grind out 25 props for a while. I was doing the work anyway, figured why not.

Getting kicked off a PPH acct is whole other story. It can be messy. Usually you go to log in one day and the PW doesnt work and thats it. Sometimes there are pending bets, sometimes theres multiple people on it and you need the history but good luck explaining that.

Theres a wide-range of how it can go. At one end your PW doesnt work and the guy stiffs you for the last week and whatever else he owed you. At the other end youll have the guy be super apologetic, pay you every cent AND either partner up with you or give you someone else number. How ever much you killed the acct and for how long determines how much youll put up with. Early on when I was getting lots of ridiculously soft accts, Id beat them up so bad and for so long that getting stiffed one week meant nothing. Then eventually I burned through all those and got accounts that were harder to beat but the guys were older and more professional and easier to deal with.

If it makes you feel any better I also got destroyed on K's

Do PPH ever settle in bitcoin? (seems like that be ideal for all parties assuming they are familiar with it)

also why not just hammer both off shore & PPH?

I'm "newer" to the game (started 3.5 years ago) but from reading old threads here I understand how much a pain offshore use to be and still can be. However it still has to be infinitely easier now of days to get new accounts/depo/wd then dealing with PPH in comparison. I assume for you one is not nearly as lucrative but don't see how this isn't leaving money on the table by not doing both.

FWIW I've only had two ventures into PPH and in both I wound up getting scammed so maybe i'm just jaded. Thanks though Poogs, great well.

If I can chime in here, as I have some experience in the matter

Why don't locals use BTC?

A few do sparingly, but most locals are not the type of guys to be big into BTC. They love a sure thing, as you can see from this thread, most of them go their whole lives without even encountering a sharp. Literally every customer loses, in the long term. And that's what they like, a SURE thing. BTC is uncertain, difficult to understand, far from a sure thing.

Why don't sharps pound offshore and PPH at the same time?

I would think the very best do. That's why the line moves. I never saw them in person do it, but I would imagine they bet the PPH sites all, then a few seconds later bet the offshore sites, because the PPH sites move based on the offshore ones.

lol yea I cant imagine any of the old school guys I used to deal with even saying the word bitcoin. Some of the new younger agents are probably using it now Id bet. Ive had offers with digital currency and have always turned them down. Maybe I have a little boomer in me....I just like cash in hand

And as for the offshore question, its a good question. Honestly, not getting into DFS and to a lesser extent not really exhausted the offshore scene as much as possible are two of my biggest 'career move' regrets. I did have accts though. Ive had 5 offshore accounts limited/turned off and probably 3 or so more that just busted and never reloaded. Plus 5dimes, who are famous for grading winning props as losers so you have to manually check all the time.

I always felt unsafe with money sitting in some account in aruba or whatever. Most of my action is stuff that real books hate and Ive had accounts limited in days. So I always felt like it was either; run bad on first deposit and have to go through the hassle and pay fees again, or run good and limited quick, or run up a balance over months and months and PRAY to get paid and if I dont theres next to nothing I can do. All the while Im getting PPHs handed to me as quick as I can use them. I had over 10 accounts most of the time.

So while I probably should have tried harder for say a ****** or BetOnline account, I dont think it was too big of a mistake really at all

Great thread Like. I am interested to hear more about your Las Vegas experience if you don't mind sharing it.

And yes I realize I called something one of my biggest mistakes ever and not too big of a mistake in the same post

Thanks.

So like I said before, I was out there for like 10 months. I was more into poker at the time and was playing 20/40 limit at the bellagio (I was out there when they moved all their limit games from 3 chip to 4 chip games; 15/30 to 20/40 and 30/60 to 40/80 which was a big deal). I loved the bellagio, it was like what you think a LV poker will be before you get there. Little ostentatious, old but not run down, awesome tables... you have doyle brunson playing poker 20 feet away from you like its no big deal. I played there a lot and eventually more Aria whose 8/16 game was crushable and way more fun. I made one really outgoing friend (asian mark aka tuna, bet people know who he is) who really showed me around and I became part of his group of all these people, none of which were from there. Literally not one person was actually from nevada. And people would just come and go all the time...one time theyre there, then theyre gone. I asked mark about this and he said thats just the way it was. People constantly come and go. One guy even stole from him! Pretended to be his friend, got some money for golf clubs and then just upped and disappeared. It was strange for me since my friends and I had been together since middle school and everyone else around here that I knew was the same way. It seemed like no one had any roots in las vegas. It seemed no one was attached to anyone or anything, really. And I think maybe this is more of an east coast/west coast thing, but people were really weirdly fake nice and fake sincere out there. People you just met act like theyre your best friend. It sounds kinda nice but it isnt. Its hard to explain. I just remember feeling loneliness and desperation from people (but who knows, maybe I was projecting. I certainly felt lonely).

As for betting, I really couldnt make it work for me out there. At first I would just go to a sports book and looks for off market straights or stale parlay cards, what have you. That didnt work. These books werent just handing out money. So I tried with props but even that logistically didnt really work. Because you have to do your work at home beforehand and you dont even know what the bets will be. So Id do projections for games and bring my little piece of papers with me and go to books and ask for their prop sheet. Most of the time they had nothing, if they did it was usually stuff like NBA team to score first with -120 both sides. Then Id finally find a prop sheet and there would be a few bets here and there. But then Id think how is this any easier or better than betting online? It wasnt, of course.

One thing I di do tha kinda did work was that I found out about these little off the strip sports books. Theyre almost like the PPHs of las vegas. Theyre these tiny little run down casino/bars with sports books in them that are way off the strip. They would have off market stuff from time to time. But you have to physically go there to really look so again, logistically it wasnt great.

The best were "stations" casinos. They were off the strip but barely. Theyd have college basketball totals that were like a point or two off from pinny. Id go there almost every day and chase steam. One time I was betting and could see a guy off to the side on a comp very obviously listening to me and the clerk talking. I got my first couple bets in and after that everything I said the clerk would go to put it in and say "oh sorry the line just changed." The guy was listening to me and changing the lines right before I could bet.

Eventually I figured I was at best breaking even at poker and betting was way more trouble than it was worth so I stayed home a lot. The strip itself can be draining. Every single thing is designed to get as much money from you as possible, as fast as possible. By the end of the lease I couldnt wait to leave.

I think a lot about how many things Id do differently now. I could have been way WAY more professional about betting and made it work for me if I tried really hard. I could have done better at poker. I never did any work at home or anything. It was really more of a year long vacation/adventure than a 'career move' and I was like 24 or 25 at the time so I dont regret it at all. But I do wish I had either taken it way more seriously or not serious at all.