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Old 01-26-2020, 04:26 PM   #1
TomG
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The Well - Like

A stranger is being shown around a village that he has just become part of. He is shown a well and his guide says "On any day except Wednesday, you can shout any question down that well, and you'll be told the answer."

The stranger shouts down several questions, and all are answered. The stranger is impressed, and after thinking a minute he shouts down: "Why not on Wednesday?" and the voice from in the well shouts back "Because on Wednesday, itís your day in the well."


Welcome Like, also known as Poogs, to The Well. For those who don't know, he is a long-time successful professional sports bettor who specializes in betting with local street bookies. On the surface, betting with your local bookie may seem similar to betting offshore or at a casino. It's actually a totally different business model that as a result can offer uniquely profitable betting opportunities to a street smart bettor.

Ask away.
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Old 01-26-2020, 04:27 PM   #2
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Re: The Well - Like

What is a PPH book? How does this differ from betting offshore or at a casino?

Why would I want to work with a PPH bookie?

How do I find a PPH bookie?

I lost a lot of money, do I really have to pay? I won a lot of money, how do I make sure I get paid?
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Old 01-26-2020, 05:50 PM   #3
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Re: The Well - Like

yay poogs! you made it now...

i donít have any questions at the moment, just here to give you a high-five. or maybe a medium-five. definitely at least that!
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Old 01-26-2020, 07:37 PM   #4
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Re: The Well - Like

Does a personal relationship with your PPH develop over time?
Or does it only stay business?
Reason for asking this is, there is a guy who organizes small pub poker tournaments that I sometimes play in. We also played together some and had a mutual respect.
One day during one of his tournaments, he mentioned that he takes bets if I wanted to wager something. I felt it would have been uncomfortable if I won a lot from him or he won a lot from me.
And, most important, if he didn't pay, I would have found it hard time threatening a 6 foot 200 pound ex marine to pay me!
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Old 01-26-2020, 08:20 PM   #5
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Re: The Well - Like

Most formative/influential books in your career?
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Old 01-27-2020, 12:11 AM   #6
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Re: The Well - Like

Tell us your best story about trying to collect after a big win

What's the most ridiculous prop type bet a local bookie has taken from you?
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Old 01-27-2020, 12:34 AM   #7
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Re: The Well - Like

What are your main go-to strategies for trying to collect when they arent paying?

Also, how do you find new people to bet with? Basically anytime I meet someone who I find out likes to make bets I ask if it is with someone local. If so, I can often get an account. But beyond that I never know how to seek out local PPH
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Old 01-27-2020, 01:22 AM   #8
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Re: The Well - Like

Are there any female PPH agents?
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Old 01-27-2020, 04:09 AM   #9
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Re: The Well - Like

Was the guy who was playing HUNL on stars with the SN 'Like' you? circa 2015
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Old 01-27-2020, 04:36 AM   #10
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Re: The Well - Like

How much trust is there at the beginning and does this grow over time?
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Old 01-27-2020, 12:06 PM   #11
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Re: The Well - Like

Alright here we go! Im honored. For anyone that doesnt know, I used to be "poogs" on here. My specialty is and always has been getting really good, SUPER soft PPH (pay per head) accounts that are very, very exploitable. I am no sports betting genius whatsoever. I taught myself excel and have made many models with it for props but thats as far as my modeling goes. My real skill is simply finding, keeping, and finding more soft PPH accounts. Ive been at this for a good decade now with nearly 100% of my action with local books. So ask away, I have lots and lots of stories and tips for finding and keeping these guys, what to look out for, etc. Ill dive in now
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Old 01-27-2020, 12:46 PM   #12
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Re: The Well - Like

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomG View Post
What is a PPH book? How does this differ from betting offshore or at a casino?

Why would I want to work with a PPH bookie?

How do I find a PPH bookie?

I lost a lot of money, do I really have to pay? I won a lot of money, how do I make sure I get paid?
PPH stands for pay per head. So say you want to be a bookie. You can rent a 'skin' from an offshore bookie, which is a betting website with a log in and password. Youll have 10 or so usernames and passwords that you give out to your customers. You can decide their max bet and weekly credit. Each account is loaded with credit. The week goes from monday to sunday, so every sunday at midnight the accounts reset to 0, and whatever your balance was for the week you meet with your customer to collect or pay in cash.

The main difference is the credit aspect. I think PPHs came on big in the SB world right around the time the whole UGIEA (however its spelled) thing happened and net teller went down. It became a lot harder and more expensive and risky to deposit onto regular sites. And the PPH's really filled in that gap nicely. They combine the ease of an offshore website with the old school feel of betting with a real live bookie.

The advantages are aplenty. The biggest one is simply softness. Lot of these guys dont know ANYTHING about sports betting and dont even know that they shouldnt take a 1H +14, under 17.5 parlay. Or that my max bet should be different for straights and props, or that going from pats -2.5 to -3.5 is a huge move, or that buying through the NFL 7 should be more than 10 cents, etc etc. I can get into the specific exploits I find later on more in depth. The second biggest thing is credit. At my peak I had over a million dollars in available credit. Thats a HUGE advantage when doing scalps and middles of course, as well as just being able to put like 6 figures worth of prop action in on a weekend, 100-500 at a time.

Finding a PPH account isnt as hard as youd think, really. The way I did it was through home poker games. In college I ran a weekly game out of my apt for 3 years and a few kids had PPH accounts. You just get to know them, let them talk a lot, then ask if you can have an account through their guy. Hell usually give his guy your number. He'll set you up small and you just go from there basically. Another way I used to find them was from my friends. Tell everyone you know, if anyone finds me a sports betting account, Ill give you 100 dollars, or cut you in for 10% weekly or whatever. I had friends who worked at car dealerships who got a few from old guys who worked there and they used to be GOLDMINES. The thing you gotta keep in mind is that these guys are always DYING for new accounts and they dont think its possible for anyone to win money at sports betting long term, because theyve never seen anyone do it before. So they want to give you an account and theyre out there. Its just a matter of finding them.


While stiffs do happen, its really not as much of a concern as youd think. Everyone kind of knows everyone else, so once you stiff someone youd be all done. No one would trust you. Bookies almost never do it, they just shut you down. It happens with players quite often, but usually youve made so much from them in the past that you just chalk it up to cost of business and move on. Its why everything is week to week, you cant get hurt too bad.
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Old 01-27-2020, 12:56 PM   #13
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Re: The Well - Like

5 stars
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Old 01-27-2020, 01:50 PM   #14
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Re: The Well - Like

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Originally Posted by Nepeeme2008 View Post
Does a personal relationship with your PPH develop over time?
Or does it only stay business?
Reason for asking this is, there is a guy who organizes small pub poker tournaments that I sometimes play in. We also played together some and had a mutual respect.
One day during one of his tournaments, he mentioned that he takes bets if I wanted to wager something. I felt it would have been uncomfortable if I won a lot from him or he won a lot from me.
And, most important, if he didn't pay, I would have found it hard time threatening a 6 foot 200 pound ex marine to pay me!
Yes, absolutely. You see him every week and you should be friendly and try to get to know him. Thats how you learn about other guys who have sites. You can also learn about his set up and how he makes money and maybe theres a way for you to get in on it. Dont be afraid of these guys. Old school 'adult' PPH guys are the absolute best. I look at it like poker; Id play all the time against friends and it was always we're all trying our hardest to take each others money but we're still friends.

This reminds me of a story Ill digress into; when I first started doing this I started with the easiest stuff: guys still taking bets on their phones. Believe it or not I had guys that would text me their lines hours before it starts. Just bet late steam...ez pz. But then I had a guy who was becoming my friend who did it and he used to send me NHL lines. But his totals would be -110 both sides! So Im getting -110 on stuff that should be like -270. So I just hammered him until he finally figured it out. My rationale was this guy is calling himself a bookie, he offered to take my action and he sure as hell would have no problem collecting from me. So I ran up like a 2k balance which was a lot back then to us and he of course couldnt pay me. So we worked out a payment plan which included him finding me more accounts.

So my advice would be to 100% take this account (never turn down an account) and just see where it goes. Start small, dont be a pain when it comes time to settle, and develop a relationship with the guy. If/when he cuts you off then you TURN him. Ill get into that more later
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Old 01-27-2020, 01:53 PM   #15
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Re: The Well - Like

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Originally Posted by CodythePATRIOT View Post
Most formative/influential books in your career?
definitely attacking las vegas by justin7. Without a doubt this set me on my way. Also Sharp Sports Betting was good. Theres tons of books out there, mostly garbage though. The best tool for me was always forums though
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:13 PM   #16
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Re: The Well - Like

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Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
Tell us your best story about trying to collect after a big win

What's the most ridiculous prop type bet a local bookie has taken from you?

Ive had so many instances where someone couldnt pay and it turned into a payment plan which turned into more accounts. Those are pretty cool. But one story sticks out: Again pretty early on in my 'career', before I moved to and back from Las Vegas, I had the best account I ever had. I still remember it. They had ZERO parlay restrictions, 500 max bet and huge weekly credit. So I was getting down on stuff like CFB 1Q -7 parlayed with -9.5, stuff like that. And he was one of the old school guys who literally didnt know sharp players existed. So he never said anything. So I just kept going and going, betting 1Q, 1H, 2H, full game...I was a pig. And I just kept getting paid out every week. This one account really got my initial bank roll and pretty much everything started.

Well one weekend Im watching and betting with a few friends over, including my partner at the time who was getting me accounts. And literally nearly every single bet I put in won. I dont wanna get into specific numbers too much but you can imagine what running in god mode at 500 parlays looks like. My friends were pumped for me but I wasnt...I knew it was bad.

The next day I get a call saying I had made "illegal bets" and wasnt getting paid anything and I better 'watch out' cuz I made 'made some people angry'. What happened was the agent finally saw that I was crushing and tried to copycapy my bets onto another book. When that book didnt allow his bet, he knew something was up. I made a big deal out of it, there were a lot of threats, the mob was brought up which I countered with Hells Angels (all bullshit obviously on both sides) and I ended up getting a portion of it. I moved to las vegas pretty soon after that.

The most ridiculous bet Ive ever seen was probably those 1Q CP's. The -110 on both sides of a hockey total are up there. Props that are like -200 everywhere getting for -110. Cross sport superbowl props area always juicy and my personal fav. Actually right now I have a couple hockey CP's that are absurd. Like this:

PARLAY (2 TEAMS)
[302667] TOTAL o5-115
(RODOVRE MIGHTY BULLS vrs AALBORG)
[302668] AALBORG -3Ĺ+115

I dunno if anyone can come up the EV of that but its gotta be up there
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:23 PM   #17
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Re: The Well - Like

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Originally Posted by Derek123 View Post
What are your main go-to strategies for trying to collect when they arent paying?

Also, how do you find new people to bet with? Basically anytime I meet someone who I find out likes to make bets I ask if it is with someone local. If so, I can often get an account. But beyond that I never know how to seek out local PPH
Well fortunately now thats really not a concern. Once you really establish yourself as a winner and trust worthy and make good connections, you get people to get you accounts. And they guarentee the money no matter what. It works like this; I have a deal with someone that goes out into pool halls and poker games all the time and loves this stuff. He gets accounts for himself and gives them to me to bet on, but he handles everything else. So the bookie doesnt even know I exist, he thinks its my partner betting. My partner would get something like 25% of my weekly action, win or lose, but he has to pay me even if he doesnt get paid. Knock on wood, I havent had a collecting problem in probably 10 years.

But for you or anyone starting out where youre getting your own accounts, you really just gotta do it. Whenever people ask about this, they always ask about getting stiffed and are worried about it. It really isnt much of a concern most of the time to be honest. You will get stiffed here and there but you cant let it knock you out. Just collect what you can, always offer a payment plan (with interest), and move on. (btw people really dont understand how interest works. You can sometimes agree to something like 100 a week where only half goes towards principal. Ive had guys pay me out like that and end up paying more than they initially owed).

Do you play poker? If so thats the place to be to find accounts. Look for guys betting on their phones and chat them up
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:34 PM   #18
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Re: The Well - Like

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Are there any female PPH agents?
Almost unheard of. I did know this really hot girl from my home town that I always wanted to hook up with, but I used to go out with her best friend so it never happened. She knew what I did and she told me she knew kids from another town that took action. So I basically made her into an agent (set up her deal for her) so I could get another account and also get in with her. It ended up not working out so great; I was down on the account but they still shut me off (with pending futures). I kept telling her how much I was gonna make her which made me look pretty bad when I got the boot in the red. On top of it, they hit me up for the futures which settled and lost. I again put up a fight because the account was gone and if they had won I know I would never have been paid. There was some back and forth but I ended up paying it even though it was 100% a free roll. So thats my only experience with girls in this.

Actually thats not exactly true. The way I met my current soon to be wife was from a pickup actually. I had a good friend who had an account for me who had friend whos a girl. We kinda knew each other. He was coming over to drop off money for me but had this girl do it instead since she was going to the gym near me, plus he knew I liked her. We ended up talking a little, I asked her out later on and now we live together, been together 5 years now and its really great.
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:36 PM   #19
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Re: The Well - Like

Do you ever bet full games just to throw the books off. I imagine if you're just doing these expotic/prop bets all the time you're going to get banned pretty fast.
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:47 PM   #20
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How much trust is there at the beginning and does this grow over time?
Usually at the start itll be the bookie who will be really nervous about getting stiffed (at least he should be. If he isnt at all then you should be cautious.) Once you have your first losing week and pay him no problem, he'll trust you more. Guys are worried about hit and runners free rolling them. Like theyll give someone an account and he'll blast off the first week. If he has a good week he collects, if not he disappears. Once you show youre at least not this guy, thats like step 1. Then you just build slowly from there.

One of my favorite accounts I ever had was from this guy who legit could not have looked more intimidating if he tried. He was head of security for a huge Boston rock band. Picture a D end mixed with a biker. I met him in his buddies bar, he took my license and copied down all the info. And im like this 22 year old kid at the time; it was kinda scary. But it ended up being awesome. He took my action for a while, I beat him up pretty good and he finally cut me off. And heres where you separate the men from the boys; when you get cut off, you gotta turn the agent. So he cuts me off and I say basically "ok so you see what I can do. I do this full time, I make lots of money betting on sports just like you saw. You can get me into someone else book, you can have 25% of my weekly action, plus whatever youre getting from the bookie when I lose." MOST guys dont really get this. You need a sharp agent to make it work but he did. He got me into other accounts which I beat up just as bad. And now I have this Undertaker looking mother ****er collecting FOR me! That was a really great deal. He ended up having to go on tour I think and we lost touch but that was sick for a while.

The last envelope he gave me when we knew it was all over he goes "you know most guys would keep that one." I always remembered that for some reason.
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:53 PM   #21
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Re: The Well - Like

Do you still bet?
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:55 PM   #22
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Re: The Well - Like

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Do you ever bet full games just to throw the books off. I imagine if you're just doing these expotic/prop bets all the time you're going to get banned pretty fast.
youd be surprised. PPH's arent like the 5dimes of the world, there isnt anyone really checking the bets. What you gotta really understand is that PPH bookies have really never had a reason to check anything. Theyll hand pats -8 when pinny is pats -6.5 and people will still load up on -8. So PPH bookies are just mostly checking the number at the end of the week and hoping to collect it. "banning a winning player" is a forgien concept to them altogether.

Though I will say that has changed somewhat and they are becoming sharper. You gotta know the book. Some you can hammer away, some you have to use cover. I find that a good MNF fav and over parlay for 100 bucks will throw em off the scent.

but for the most part cover plays arent that important. If theyre sharp theyll shut you down anyways and if not its just a waste of money. Actually an old school poster from here taught me this when we worked together briefly: "these guys wouldnt know a +EV play if it punched them in the face. Slash and burn baby"
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Old 01-27-2020, 02:59 PM   #23
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Re: The Well - Like

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Do you still bet?
yes, not as much as 3-4 years ago but picking up somewhat actually. I have a real job and thought I was done with it but it really is my passion and I just love it. I mostly just hammer on really easy stuff, CP's, off market stuff, I like political betting with big elections, and props but only my best props now. Im also a middle man for other sharps
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:06 PM   #24
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Re: The Well - Like

Quote:
Originally Posted by Like View Post
Well one weekend Im watching and betting with a few friends over, including my partner at the time who was getting me accounts. And literally nearly every single bet I put in won. I dont wanna get into specific numbers too much but you can imagine what running in god mode at 500 parlays looks like. My friends were pumped for me but I wasnt...I knew it was bad.

The next day I get a call saying I had made "illegal bets" and wasnt getting paid anything and I better 'watch out' cuz I made 'made some people angry'. What happened was the agent finally saw that I was crushing and tried to copycapy my bets onto another book. When that book didnt allow his bet, he knew something was up. I made a big deal out of it, there were a lot of threats, the mob was brought up which I countered with Hells Angels (all bullshit obviously on both sides) and I ended up getting a portion of it. I moved to las vegas pretty soon after that.
Had a situation like this where I had a big week and the agent only paid half of what was owed. But it just feels like they are getting a crazy freeroll by accepting your action and then (partially) stiffing you if you actually have a big week. Maybe it just hurts worse the first time it happens.
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Old 01-27-2020, 03:08 PM   #25
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Re: The Well - Like

Well thats another murky area actually that I kinda forgot about. One thing to beware of; getting stiffed by an agent who got paid by his bookie. Thats bad. What happened exactly and do you know the actual bookie?
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