Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Small Stakes PL/NL Discussions regarding small stakes pot and no-limit hold'em (50c-1 to 1-2) Forum is closed; read only.

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-13-2017, 02:45 AM   #1
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,846
River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

CO was a pretty active opener, had either around 80% or 100% fold to 3-bet over a small sample. I decide to 3b Q8s here since he has a fold button pre, and I tend to defend my blinds more aggressively with 3-bets. I like 3-betting here a lot since we some better Qx to fold (QJo/QTo/Q9s), we fold out all his broadway/Ax equity that can't continue vs 3-bet, and our hand has a lot of playability postflop.

OTF, we have a GS + overcard. We're checking most of our range on this flop, but I did not want to x/r this hand neither did I want to x/f.

The turn brings another backdoor draw and the K overcard. I thought about x/f'ing here, but thought I had decent equity vs his flop calling range. My Q is most likely good, and my gutshot is almost always live. I also planned to bluff-shove spade rivers and give up on any other river.

River is a spade, and I'm at the bottom of my range. I think it's a no-brainer shove at this point. I think I accidentally didn't go all-in, probably had like 2.3bbs left lol since the CO had me covered.

Thoughts?


iPoker - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 154.98 BB (VPIP: 32.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 25)
Hero (BB): 130.25 BB
UTG: 98.13 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
CO: 132.1 BB (VPIP: 35.71, PFR: 35.71, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)
BTN: 120.58 BB (VPIP: 39.29, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 30)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q 8

fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9.5 BB, CO calls 6.5 BB

Flop: (19.5 BB, 2 players) 7 4 5
Hero bets 10 BB, CO calls 10 BB

Turn: (39.5 BB, 2 players) K
Hero bets 22 BB, CO calls 22 BB

River: (83.5 BB, 2 players) T
Hero bets 86.47 BB
Minatorr is offline  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:26 AM   #2
AbsoluteTilt
veteran
 
AbsoluteTilt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: from new yawkkkkkk
Posts: 2,751
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Give up on the flop so you don't have to force yourself into a 3 barrel bluff out of position with little to no equity.
AbsoluteTilt is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 05:24 AM   #3
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,846
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Think giving up OTF is a little too nitty, esp when we take this line preflop and since we can fold out all his whiffed hands like suited broadways/strong Ax/whiffed SCs, which make up a lot of his 3-bet calling range. We also don't need that many folds to make this flop c-bet profitable. Looking at my flop sizing though, I think I should have made it 11-12bb since I'm checking a lot of my range here.

I planned on checking and giving up on a lot of different turns. But the K scare card plus, my likely live gutshot & live Q if he just flats the turn (I seriously doubt 200NL players are not jamming 2pr+ OTT here), and river spades I can bluff, I thought it was a profitable barrel. Sometimes my 8 is even live here vs hands like spades or backdoor hearts. I don't see how we have "little to no equity here" when called OTT.

Also, I think in this exact spot I'm going to have quite a heavy value-range, so I need some bluffs here. I'm 3-betting 44, 55, 77, 75s, 54s preflop, maybe even 74s. 99+ without a spade I'm also barreling as well on this turn. A lot of my spade hands like AKss/AQss probably aren't betting this flop and x'cing.
Minatorr is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 07:23 AM   #4
yasuo
grinder
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 508
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

i dont like shoving a spade river without blocker when our value range shrinks and villain has all the flushes. shoving a blank would be nice tho because as you mentioned his turn calling range is capped
yasuo is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 12:39 PM   #5
Oregon Rick
grinder
 
Oregon Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 424
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

I like the flop and turn bets. We can definitely get better hands to fold on the flop. The King is a scare card we can continue on. I don't like the river shove though. I think it's more likely that we are shoving into villain's range here. It's hard for us to rep a flush when we don't have a single spade. I would give up on the river.
Oregon Rick is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 05:36 PM   #6
.isolated
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
.isolated's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Team J.A.M.M.A.T. <3
Posts: 12,991
Cool Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
CO was a pretty active opener, had either around 80% or 100% fold to 3-bet over a small sample. I decide to 3b Q8s here since he has a fold button pre, and I tend to defend my blinds more aggressively with 3-bets. I like 3-betting here a lot since we some better Qx to fold (QJo/QTo/Q9s), we fold out all his broadway/Ax equity that can't continue vs 3-bet, and our hand has a lot of playability postflop.

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q 8

fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9.5 BB
.isolated is offline  
Old 05-14-2017, 05:50 PM   #7
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,846
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by .isolated View Post


In a vacuum, I thought 3-betting pre vs this specific CO opener was going to be more profitable than flat-calling. I probably 3-bet here vs most active LP openers who have a decent fold vs 3-bet %, and flat if they just never fold to 3-bets. I.e. nits or stations
Minatorr is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 04:02 AM   #8
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,846
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by yasuo View Post
i dont like shoving a spade river without blocker when our value range shrinks and villain has all the flushes. shoving a blank would be nice tho because as you mentioned his turn calling range is capped
I think my value range is going to be super wide here, and that I might actually not have enough bluffs. In this exact spot, I'm going to have 15 sets here, 86s, lots of Axss/Kxss/Qxss/Jxss, and a lot of SC flushes, most 1-gappers & 2-gapper flushes, and 3-gapper flushes like 107ss/96ss.

I'm at the stone-cold bottom of my range on this runout, and I think bluff-shoving is pretty mandatory. I also think that besides hearts, I don't really have any other bluffing candidates here.

Not sure bluff-shoving a blank runout is a good idea because I think a lot of decent regs here are going to think, "Well 6x, spades, and hearts all missed, he's repping super narrow & super polarized, I cawl." Also, I don't see what type of hand we can choose to barrel flop & turn with, and still have a spade bluff-jam on this river??? . It's not like I have AsQx here or bluff-jam AsKx on this river.

I think his range OTR combination-wise has way more one-pair hands/bluff-catchers & backdoor hearts than spades. I'm also assigning him very few slowplayed hands because I'm pretty sure most 200NL regs are raising flop or turn with 2pair+ almost always. Also, it'd be very unfortunate to x/f here vs a bluff-shove from missed backdoor hearts, which he has a decent # of combos of. A jam here only needs slightly over 50% fold equity here to show a profit, and I think it does get through quite often.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-15-2017 at 04:20 AM.
Minatorr is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 04:12 AM   #9
Minatorr
old hand
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,846
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Here's what I think a reasonable turn calling range looks like for him:

https://ibb.co/dym3Qk

Most of the suited hands I omitted clubs/diamonds, or hearts/spades if not applicable. I think he folds way more than 50% of those hands to a river jam.

Ofc he may have some slowplayed hands like 86hh/86ss or very rarely sets/two pair, but combination-wise there shouldn't be that many to tip his river calling frequency that much higher.

Last edited by Minatorr; 05-15-2017 at 04:21 AM.
Minatorr is offline  
Old 05-15-2017, 08:47 AM   #10
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,260
Re: River bluff with Q high in 3-bet pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
I think my value range is going to be super wide here, and that I might actually not have enough bluffs. In this exact spot, I'm going to have 15 sets here, 86s, lots of Axss/Kxss/Qxss/Jxss, and a lot of SC flushes, most 1-gappers & 2-gapper flushes, and 3-gapper flushes like 107ss/96ss.

I'm at the stone-cold bottom of my range on this runout, and I think bluff-shoving is pretty mandatory. I also think that besides hearts, I don't really have any other bluffing candidates here.
.
I'm surprised 3 betting some of those hands would be more profitable long term than flatting them and trying to play postflop. Seems like you're 3 betting a ton of hands even if you only do that vs targeted villains.

Another thing that I would say is that sometimes runouts are going to come where it may not be possible for you to fit enough bluffs in to your range based on the action on previous streets. In theses scenarios, it's sometimes fine to bluff everything but I would want a scenario where villain is more capped. I think ranges in this particular example intersect more and as much as you're supposedly 3 betting I think just trying to fit enough bluffs in your range to balance is a bad idea.
just_grindin is offline  

 
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online