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Please analyze!  Tear me apart!!!  AK vs. JJ Please analyze!  Tear me apart!!!  AK vs. JJ

07-19-2011 , 03:04 PM
I would really appreciate an analysis of where I went wrong (multiple spots most likely!!)

2-5 NL, 9 handed, new to the table with $300.

I'm 4th to act and wake up with JJ, decide to limp.

Pre-flop action:
1st position folds.
2nd and 3rd position limp.
I limp.
SB makes it 25. (he's got about $350)
BB folds, and 2nd and 3rd and me flat.

Flop: Kc 8c 7d

SB makes it 35.
2nd and 3rd fold.
I raise to 75.
He calls.

Turn: 8h

SB checks.
I bet 100.
SB ponders, then calls.

River: 9h

SB shoves all-in (~$100)
I call and ship the remainder of my 300 buy-in.

He shows AKo.

Again, thanks for considering this hand, and educating the fish
07-19-2011 , 03:25 PM
would you mind answering some questions? this will help you a lot.

why do you limp pre?

why do you raise his flop cbet?

why do you bet turn?

why do you call the river?
07-19-2011 , 03:54 PM
I really don't know where to start man... you have a LOT to learn about poker. Try reading some beginner strategy guides or something like that. You're missing a lot of very fundamental stuff.
07-19-2011 , 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuddhaMonk187
would you mind answering some questions? this will help you a lot.

why do you limp pre?

why do you raise his flop cbet?

why do you bet turn?

why do you call the river?
^ this, you should be thinking about the decisions you make. As far as a critique-

1. I wouldnt limp jacks here, you are entering a multi way pot willingly with a hand that does not play well multiway.

2. Once you decided to limp and the sb opened to 25 and the other 2 limp again its pretty obvious you are likely crushing the 2 limpers, they are dead money if you raise they are likely to fold. If they had a big hand they likely would have limped and raised. I raise to something in 75-80 range and depending on reads on the sb decide whether or not im comfortable stacking off.

3. Now that you have gotten yourself here i dont mind the raise of his cbet, his bet is 1/3 pot which looks kind of weak considering the board is pretty wet.

4. He checks the turn and it is quite possible that we are already beat, he could have qq,kk,aa,ak, and even kq,kj depending on how tight he is. You never raised him pre so we dont really know how strong he is. AQ,AJ of clubs are also likely. There isnt really a need to bet after he checks as we dont know where we are and playing a huge pot for our stack is not ideal. Any hand better than us is likely calling and anything that we are beating folds.

If you put him on a draw and that is why you were betting your sizing isnt ideal as you are betting less than 1/2 pot. Should at least be 1/2 pot or more.

5. Once you get to the river you have to call. All the draws missed except for 56 which isnt something he would open from the blind to 25 and really the only thing our hand beats and has been beating the whole time is a draw. Assuming this was your read you have to call.
07-19-2011 , 04:22 PM
[x] OP's postcount: 1

[x] Everyone who posted before me has been leveled
07-19-2011 , 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda
[x] OP's postcount: 1

[x] Everyone who posted before me has been leveled
People prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, and rightly so. This forum is here to help people, and that is why people post here.

As for the hand, I think the preflop limp has been covered. On later streets, you need to consider what hands that you beat that can call a bet or raise, before you decide to bet or raise. When you call a bet (e.g. on the flop) you need to consider what hands he might hold that you beat given the previous action - he has three bet preflop and then bet into 4 players on the flop, both of which imply he likes his hand.
07-19-2011 , 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAtR
People prefer to give the benefit of the doubt, and rightly so. This forum is here to help people, and that is why people post here.

As for the hand, I think the preflop limp has been covered. On later streets, you need to consider what hands that you beat that can call a bet or raise, before you decide to bet or raise. When you call a bet (e.g. on the flop) you need to consider what hands he might hold that you beat given the previous action - he has three bet preflop and then bet into 4 players on the flop, both of which imply he likes his hand.
he never 3bet..and playing live, most decent villains will bet a whole lot of hands on a flop like this for value, since the field is so terrible..even 4 way..

that being said, I'm with Sirrybob..
07-19-2011 , 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patron james
he never 3bet..and playing live, most decent villains will bet a whole lot of hands on a flop like this for value, since the field is so terrible..even 4 way..

that being said, I'm with Sirrybob..
Misread the hand, the raise is still a sign of strength although less so.

I don't quite see what hands bet this flop for value into 4 people that JJ beats though. Generally when people bet into a multiway pot they are much more likely to have a strong holding.
07-19-2011 , 06:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WAtR
Misread the hand, the raise is still a sign of strength although less so.

I don't quite see what hands bet this flop for value into 4 people that JJ beats though. Generally when people bet into a multiway pot they are much more likely to have a strong holding.
absolutely..but since the field is soooo much weaker, you can bet a whole lot more hands for value..for instance, I would bet this flop for value with 77, 88, KK, AA, Kx, 99-KK and Axcc, although that would be more of a semi bluff..
07-20-2011 , 12:05 AM
Limping could be good preflop if you think someone behind you is very aggressive and will raise, like they did, and in that case you should just shove the jacks preflop. Otherwise just either call the flop and fold to a turn bet or fold flop.
07-20-2011 , 11:45 AM
I agree with everyone's comments wholeheartedly. Had no read on the BB pre. I don't necessarily think that the limp of JJ was bad, seeing that I wanted to just take my first hand and possibly flop a set. But then I should've folded when it didn't come.

The small c-bet seemed weak, and I thought a raise would take it down if he didn't hold a K. When he called and checked the turn, I should've put him on a K and checked and been happy with the free street, rather than firing again.

But, yes, after he pushed on the river, I thought it through and the pot offered 5:1 thinking he might've been on a flush draw all along.

I appreciate the wisdom.

P.S. I'm new to the forum, players have said 2+2 provides good insight. What does this mean?

"[x] OP's postcount: 1

[x] Everyone who posted before me has been leveled"

Should I not ask questions?

Thanks guys
07-20-2011 , 12:04 PM
do not include villain's hand in your post, this will skew the advide you get.
07-20-2011 , 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riske
do not include villain's hand in your post, this will skew the advide you get.
It's true, I did consider this when I made the post. I think most responders would be able to consider their moves and thought process given they couldn't see his holes.

Thanks!
07-20-2011 , 04:30 PM
Stop limp/calling.
07-20-2011 , 09:16 PM
Since it sounds like you are actually searching for help, let me welcome you to the forum. You can learn a lot from this forum (though probably more in the past than currently) if you know where to look and what to ask. People will likely be harsh on you since you are new to the forum and appear to possess a lot of leaks. Don't let that discourage you; take constructive criticism seriously and don't take comments too personally.

Buddhamonk gives you some good questions you should consider every hand. When taking an action, make sure your logic makes sound sense.

To start with advice (no offense, but pretty much everything you did in the hand was as wrong as you can go) you need to be more aggressive preflop. Limping is almost always an incorrect decision with any hand, especially when no one has opened the pot. Raising is always better because with the betting lead/demonstration of strength you can bluff easier and valuebet better when you actually hit a very strong hand. Remember, ALWAYS BE THE AGGRESSOR preflop. Raise or fold always.

Next on the flop you did what would be called an 'info raise', which is basically a negative freeroll raise to pay more money to 'find out where you are at'. This is wrong is 97% of instances. Listen to your own logic: you thought a raise would take the pot down if he didn't hold a king. If he does hold a king, he is never folding and you are putting more money into the pot when drawing to 2 outs being very unsure of how to respond to future actions. If he doesn't hold a king, YOU ARE AHEAD, meaning you want him to put in more money while behind, so calling is better than raising. The turn is questionable as to why you bet. You should always have a reason and intention for any bet you make, including what type of hands you are either trying to fold, or get value from. I don't see what the turn functions as.

Hope that helps some. Since you're new, I'd recommend reading through the SSNL link thread, which has many valuable links from past threads that should quickly iron out many of your leaks. Pay attention to the poo-bah posts and the Wells.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/39...ection-100801/

Good luck improving
07-20-2011 , 09:58 PM
Good stuff
07-21-2011 , 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff Disciple
Since it sounds like you are actually searching for help, let me welcome you to the forum. You can learn a lot from this forum (though probably more in the past than currently) if you know where to look and what to ask. People will likely be harsh on you since you are new to the forum and appear to possess a lot of leaks. Don't let that discourage you; take constructive criticism seriously and don't take comments too personally.

Buddhamonk gives you some good questions you should consider every hand. When taking an action, make sure your logic makes sound sense.

To start with advice (no offense, but pretty much everything you did in the hand was as wrong as you can go) you need to be more aggressive preflop. Limping is almost always an incorrect decision with any hand, especially when no one has opened the pot. Raising is always better because with the betting lead/demonstration of strength you can bluff easier and valuebet better when you actually hit a very strong hand. Remember, ALWAYS BE THE AGGRESSOR preflop. Raise or fold always.

Next on the flop you did what would be called an 'info raise', which is basically a negative freeroll raise to pay more money to 'find out where you are at'. This is wrong is 97% of instances. Listen to your own logic: you thought a raise would take the pot down if he didn't hold a king. If he does hold a king, he is never folding and you are putting more money into the pot when drawing to 2 outs being very unsure of how to respond to future actions. If he doesn't hold a king, YOU ARE AHEAD, meaning you want him to put in more money while behind, so calling is better than raising. The turn is questionable as to why you bet. You should always have a reason and intention for any bet you make, including what type of hands you are either trying to fold, or get value from. I don't see what the turn functions as.

Hope that helps some. Since you're new, I'd recommend reading through the SSNL link thread, which has many valuable links from past threads that should quickly iron out many of your leaks. Pay attention to the poo-bah posts and the Wells.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/39...ection-100801/

Good luck improving
In response to the above, and all other constructive responses...awesome, thanks. Exactly why I came here.

If I objectively look over the hand (which would be nice to do during rather than after shipping), I'd see my turn raise trying to get someone off a weak King or a draw. But the bet was too small to get someone off of any nut draws, and could he really be holding something like K-6 after raising pre? My plays just made no sense for those and many of the other afformentioned reasons.

Thanks,
Fish

      
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