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NL200: basic preflop vs unknown NL200: basic preflop vs unknown

06-11-2008 , 06:42 AM
Poker Stars $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked

BB: $200.00
UTG: $200.00
MP: $334.70
CO: $565.30
BTN: $51.80
Hero (SB): $593.20

Pre Flop: Hero is SB with Q A
4 folds, Hero raises to $6, BB raises to $22, Hero raises to $60, BB raises to $200 all in, Hero calls $140

The only thing I know about this player is they are a regular at these stakes. This was their literal first hand at the table. There's a good chance I could just be a random in their eyes. Is this an easy call/fold? I was unsure as of what to do (I am aware this is a fairly simple situation).
06-11-2008 , 06:58 AM
marginal
06-11-2008 , 07:31 AM
I'd recommend you to have a plan what to do to a shove BEFORE 4betting

In general I 4bet to an amount <$60 so I'm not committed with my bluffs.

Question now is: were you bluffing? If yes, fold. If no, call
06-11-2008 , 07:41 AM
First hand with the read you have I fold to his 3bet, I definitely would not be happy with getting it in.
06-11-2008 , 08:24 AM
You shouldnt be 4bet/folding AQo.

If you feel like you want to get it in, then 4bet and call a shove. Otherwise, just flat his 3bet and see a flop.

As to the EV of getting it in, its pretty marginal with no history but SB vs BB its ok.
06-11-2008 , 08:34 AM
I flat his raise your ahead of his range albeit oop, i dont see much merit in 4 betting.

Once you have though you shouldnt consider folding with AQ.
06-11-2008 , 08:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieRooo
First hand with the read you have I fold to his 3bet, I definitely would not be happy with getting it in.
Can we really fold AQ against a reg in a BvB battle? If I'm BB here, my range for 3-betting would be something like 77+/A9+ and a bunch of other random hands just because I have position. It's a somewhat nasty spot to 4-bet, that's for sure, but I don't like flat-calling either as we'll be OOP and miss the flop quite often.
06-11-2008 , 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WroteForLuck
You shouldnt be 4bet/folding AQo.

If you feel like you want to get it in, then 4bet and call a shove. Otherwise, just flat his 3bet and see a flop.

As to the EV of getting it in, its pretty marginal with no history but SB vs BB its ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by InsideEdge
I flat his raise your ahead of his range albeit oop, i dont see much merit in 4 betting.

Once you have though you shouldnt consider folding with AQ.
I understand that we're ahead of his range, so wouldn't that mean that 4betting is a better option than playing this hand OOP?
The fact that we're generally ahead doesn't really change the fact that we're OOP and gonna be c/folding a lot of the time, so it makes up for the difference in our ranges(in his case). Whereas 4betting makes up the difference in our position (now we don't have to play a difficult-to-play hand OOP+ we're ahead of his range), so doesn't that make 4betting the best option?

Hope this makes sense
06-11-2008 , 06:12 PM
I'm calling the 3bet instead of 4betting it. And if I'm 4betting I really want to fold unless I have history. You have position after all, take a flop.

EDIT: Didn't realize we were in SB. I would 4bet/fold, perhaps much to the chagrin of many posters here. I think 4betting makes this hand waaaaay easier to play. I think this is really more personal preference than anything else. If you're good oop, I wouldn't mind at all seeing a flop instead of 4betting even though you miss alot. If you get it in with TP, you are ahead here ALOT, whereas if you get it in with TP in a 4bet pot you're ahead not very often.

Last edited by Storms a Brewin; 06-11-2008 at 06:17 PM.
06-12-2008 , 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storms a Brewin
I'm calling the 3bet instead of 4betting it. And if I'm 4betting I really want to fold unless I have history. You have position after all, take a flop.

EDIT: Didn't realize we were in SB. I would 4bet/fold, perhaps much to the chagrin of many posters here. I think 4betting makes this hand waaaaay easier to play. I think this is really more personal preference than anything else. If you're good oop, I wouldn't mind at all seeing a flop instead of 4betting even though you miss alot. If you get it in with TP, you are ahead here ALOT, whereas if you get it in with TP in a 4bet pot you're ahead not very often.
Yes I don't understand why 4bet folding is so awful... anyone care to explain?

I called as it was, he had AA.
06-12-2008 , 10:38 AM
4bet/folding isn't necessarily an awful thing to, but it's bad when your hand is quite strong. People v. rarely call 4bets when stacks are 100BB, they either fold or shove 90% of the time, and so value-raising with the intention of folding doesn't work - it's turning your hand into a bluff.

The only way you win the pot (if you 4bet/fold) is if he folds to your 4bet in which case you may as well do it with 72o as your equity doesn't matter since you'll hardly ever be seeing a showdown.

Also, you only have to call $140 to win $260 and only need ~35% equity, (we're 28% v KK for comparison) so he doesn't have to be doing this with worse v. often (or even hands we're flipping with) to make folding a costly mistake. Folding a coin flip here is twice as costly as incorrectly calling against KK

So if you do 4bet as a bluff you should do it with trash rather than hands strong enough to call the 3bet.

In this particular hand I'd rather call the 3bet than 4bet/call, even though it means playing OOP, because we dominate a large chunk of his 3betting range in BvB that he'll be folding to a 4bet.
06-12-2008 , 12:28 PM
i call the 3bet. 4betting her boots out a lot of dominated hands KQ,AJ,AT,QJs. Just call and look to stack off when u hit.
06-12-2008 , 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldEmNewby
i call the 3bet. 4betting her boots out a lot of dominated hands KQ,AJ,AT,QJs. Just call and look to stack off when u hit.
this is good advice
06-12-2008 , 12:36 PM
I woudn't 4-bet if you don't have much history with the player. If you do, I believe you need to fold to the shove for the same reason.

      
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