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NL200: 3betPot JJ, standart? NL200: 3betPot JJ, standart?

05-03-2011 , 10:51 PM
Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $2(BB) Replayer
Hero ($276)
BB ($218)
UTG ($265)
UTG+1 ($268)
CO ($257)
BTN ($203)

Dealt to Hero K K

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $6, Hero raises to $20, fold, BTN calls $14

FLOP ($42) 8 7 5

Hero bets $26, BTN raises to $60, Hero raises to $256 (AI), BTN calls $123 (AI)

TURN ($408) 8 7 5 4

RIVER ($408) 8 7 5 4 6

BTN shows J J
(Pre 19%, Flop 11.6%, Turn 9.1%)

Hero shows K K
(Pre 81%, Flop 88.4%, Turn 90.9%)

BTN wins $202
Hero wins $202

So the question is about villains play. Is it a good line to raise\call vs unknown here? Could he play better?
05-04-2011 , 02:33 AM
This is fine by both, typical cooler imo. Slightly interesting that he didn't just 4-bet preflop I guess.
05-04-2011 , 02:58 AM
Its a pretty standard depending on the dynamics. Usually people 3bet lighter from the blinds so I think pre flop. I like calling 3bets with JJ more than 4betting in that spot as well since when you 4bet you fold out most hands you are crushing and I think most villains will only 5bet shove with JJ+ AK+. Also when you call with JJ on the button the 3bettor is oop so you usually get more value as well since he will cbet a lot of the time with his bluffs.
05-04-2011 , 03:48 AM
I think its standard, and prolly the best way for villain to play it vs. an unknown. 4b/C it off is a much worse line vs. an unknown since no one ever 5 bet shoves light without history unless they are a huge fish.

At least when playing it this way villain can expect to either collect a cbet and build some history if you had folded, or potentially get it in against random draws post flop that your average 200 reg might be 3betting with in this spot (first 3bet always a bluff right?).
05-04-2011 , 05:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BETMAN
So the question is about villains play. Is it a good line to raise\call vs unknown here? Could he play better?
pre vs unknown is standard

i dont like villains flop raise. when he gets it in the best he can hope for is 50/50 or he is dominated.

villains hand is face up when he raises, its 99+ like always (or sometimes a set, but its hard to make sets), his raise allows hero to play correct, we fold when we have no equity, we ship our overcards+flushdraw (and he is chopping).

on this board there are quite some draws so hero will most likely double barrel, i call flop and play a turn. whenever villain gets it in on flop his often flipping and sometimes way behind.
05-04-2011 , 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerbiker
pre vs unknown is standard

i dont like villains flop raise. when he gets it in the best he can hope for is 50/50 or he is dominated.

villains hand is face up when he raises, its 99+ like always (or sometimes a set, but its hard to make sets), his raise allows hero to play correct, we fold when we have no equity, we ship our overcards+flushdraw (and he is chopping).

on this board there are quite some draws so hero will most likely double barrel, i call flop and play a turn. whenever villain gets it in on flop his often flipping and sometimes way behind.
Call flop and raise-shove any turn?
05-04-2011 , 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BETMAN
Call flop and raise-shove any turn?
that is not playing the turn.

btw. i did analyse the board wrong, i thought there is a FD out there. makes my equity analyses is wrong, but makes it a even easier call. (when we raise he will fold his overcards which he might barrel, shoves his other overpairs, and maybe shove A6 or so which has good equity).

i am not raising here, it will force my opponent to play correct.

on this turn is would shove, because villain would not be barreling without equity.
05-04-2011 , 05:56 PM
totally depends what he thinks about you.
05-05-2011 , 01:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwilcox
totally depends what he thinks about you.
+1

Give some info about your style. How much do you 3 bet, do you cbet a lot in 3bet pot, do you double barrel as a bluff in 3bet pot ect...
05-05-2011 , 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BETMAN
vs unknown here
.
05-05-2011 , 08:12 AM
flatting JJ on the flop is probably ok too, but there are so many turns we dislike i really don't mind raise/getting it in on the flop.
05-05-2011 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by riske
flatting JJ on the flop is probably ok too, but there are so many turns we dislike i really don't mind raise/getting it in on the flop.
Yes, there are a lot of ugly turns... Perhaps calling looks better on dry boards. So raise flop is better imo, but it doesn't look like obv +ev situation. Against value range it is definitly -ev. But should we give the villain 99+ (77+ even worse for us), KQ+, AJ+ pre and 99+ (or 77+) when he bets this flop? How often we give him a bluff cbet on such a flop?
It is all about default play.

      
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