I've been playing Poker consistently for about 3 years now. I started as an Online player looking for something to pass my time while i worked from home on the play money tables, did very well, started reading books and online forums, Put on a $25 deposit a few times playing SNG's and .5/.10 cash-- until i got up to playing .25/.50 and .50/1 ( running 3 cash tables and one MTT 8 hours a day for around a year until black friday ) I did 'decent', making small profits, but profit's nonetheless, my biggest leak being my bankroll. After Black friday i began playing a local home game .50/1 and continued making 'small' but consistent profits (but continuing to be under bankrolled even for the $100 buy in's at .50/1) playing one buy in poker, taking a bad beat and having to get up and leave -- This was 2 years ago, the game has now since been upped from .50/1 to 1/2, to now 1/3 - and over the past 2 years i have become MUCH more profitable and in the past few months been able to build up some large profits with consecutive streaks. I'm still under-rolled, but i'm at least able to play with 2-3 buy in's. My biggest issue is my bankroll, and i was given some good advice recently which i'll share

When a carpenter goes out to dinner, he doesn't pay the bill with a hammer and nails, he pays with his money, and keeps his hammer and nails at home for his next job, never putting his hammer and nails in jeapordy, which allows him to always go to work the next day and make more money. But a poker player's tools are his money, which he uses to pay bills and pretty much everything, Which makes holding onto those tools much harder than any other job, when a poker player uses all his money, he has no tools to go to work the next day.

This has been my biggest problem. But i have grown EXTREMELY confident in my skills at 1/2, and my opponents of which i play against at home games and the casino's at these stakes are just god awful. I am far from having the 20 buy in's needed (i buy in for $200) so poker books say you need around $4,000 to play 1/2 -- I have roughly 5 buy in's.. but i have been able to consistently beat 1/2 for a long time now

and i'm really interested in moving up to 2/5. Being that i'm under-rolled for the game, even at 1/2-- but the fact that i can consistently beat 1/2 without a doubt.. What are you're suggestions for my move up? Should i continue to grind 1/2 games for another 6 months until i can save up around 5k ? Or should i stop wasting times in kiddie games which i feel i can easily crush and move up to 2/5 and take my shot ? Also, what are some of the biggest differences you'll find in a 2/5 game vs a 1/2 game ? Are the players at 2/5 that much better than a 1/2 or mostly are they just wealthier than the donks at 1/2 ?

How are you going to handle dropping 2-4 BI at 2/5? Doesn't this wipe out your entire roll? I dropped 2 this past Friday night both times when villian had an 8% chance on the turn to win (2 pair vs my flopped set and we are AI on turn). Yes it happens. Also, if you are a thinking player, 2/5 is the way to go. The biggest difference depending on location is the player. There are profession players that grind 2/5 not so much at 1/2. The local casino I play at it is not uncommon to play against 5/10 & 10/20 regs. They will sit while waiting for seats to open at the bigger games. There are also less donks per table than at the 1/2.

If I were you, I would grind up to 5k, then start taking shots. If you are as good as you think you are it shouldn't take you 6 months to accomplish. You say you are crushing 1/2. What is your hourly?

Play 2/5 obv, 2 buy ins is plenty and you are not a carpenter

Seems like it would make more sense for you to just grind a while longer until you have the proper bankroll to permanently move up to 2/5. Either way best of luck to you.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...kroll-1160302/

tl;dr: if you're a long term winning 1-2 player, take a 1 buy in shot at 2/5 when you have around $2500

what you should be interested in is building a proper bankroll.

it seems to me all you're doing is running well right now and variance has not hit you yet.

you need to understand that it will and your RoR is incredibly high with the bankroll (or lack there of) that you have. understand that all you are doing right now is taking shots at 1-2. theres nothing wrong with thinking of 2-5 but you are atleast 9k away from that.

bad beats will happen and you will go broke with the little amount of money youre playing with.

right now im going through the biggest downswing of 7 years of playing and its not pleasant and let me tell you, your roll would have been wiped out already and then some.

in my last session alone, i lost two buyins to 2 separate 2 outers. and have lost almost every coinflip situation i have been in.

you cannot under-estimate the power of being properly rolled for the inevitable bad run thats coming.

further more, the fact that youre even coming on here asking if youre ready for a bigger game........ says youre not.

happy trails my friend and may your run good continue.

Grindme's post is spot-on especially when he says that you need to understand that with roughly $1,000 as your bankroll, you are taking shots at 1/2. How important is your bankroll to you? It is very easy to drop five, ten or even more buyins playing poker due to suckouts and coolers. It WILL happen to you!

If you have a job or other income to easily replace your BR then losing it may not matter that much. But it seems like you want to treat your BR seriously and minimize the risk of losing it. For that purpose, five buyins is just not even close to enough.

If your bankroll is $1000, there's no way you should be playing 2/5. You don't know when you're going to run bad. Any game that can eliminate your bankroll in 1 session should be avoided.

Nice link & thread on this subject.

put it all on black at least 4 times then play 2/5.

I'm kind of going through the same thing as you. I am a consistent winning player at 1/2, and walk out with 1 - 1.5BI 80% of the time during a 6 - 8 hour session. That is generally anywhere from $200 - $300 in that amount of time. I've said before in a thread that this kind of money is sufficient to live off of, which it is, but the problem with it is that it is just a major grind (especially when you lose a 2-3BI stop-loss 20% of the time), and the variance can be absolutely huge considering the players are much worse (good), and are more willing to run you down (bad). This is why I built my BR up enough to withstand being able to lose a few BI at 2/5 (instead of the normal 20), and have begun to move over to that game.

The psychology of the two games is completely different even on a level skill field. Say you're betting 2/3rds into a 10bb pot in each game. With all else being equal, people are going to be far more apt to fish out regardless of their odds when they are facing $13 as opposed to $34. That isn't to say you want to play better players because that is -ev, but imo, you want to play people who are semi-competent, and where you aren't always going to be playing eight handed when you raise 10+bb from MP with AKs with a couple of limpers before you. You want to have a chance to outplay 1, or two people post flop rather than spinning the wheel in order to get lucky enough to flop a monster against the entire table.

If you are honestly a consistent winner at 1/2, I would suggest making a bad BRM move just to try a single BI at 2/5. Of course, you're going to want to sit down with at least 100BB. The main problem you're going to face is being WAY too nitty because you might be playing with scared money, and in that case you're going to be losing before you even sit down. I wish I could give lessons in apathy toward money.

The other problem is that people are going to be making better plays against you all of the time, i.e. 3betting preflop, floating the flop OOP to bluff the river, betting/raising mid-pairs on bad boards when they think they're ahead, betting scare cards, and most of all... far better situational awareness, etc. These are things that a lot of 1/2 players just don't do, or at least don't realize they are/why they are doing it.

If you truly do believe that your 1/2 game is on lockdown, then put a rack of red birds on a 2/5 table, and sit there being super-nit for a few hours. During those hours, you PAY ATTENTION to everything that is going on, and don't get yourself into any trouble, or even really become a presence at the table. I'm talking about being as nitty as folding AKs on the button when faced with a min-raise. Watch everyone else play, watch what they do, how they do it, and try to figure out why they do what they do. Then, rack up, go home, analyze the game for a couple of days (especially specific key plays/hands), and if you think your game can benefit from 2/5, then come back later to sit down at the table ready to play your game.

PROS:

- More income potential
- Less variance
- Learning more about the game in 8 hours than you would over the course of a year at 1/2

CONS:

- Playing better players
- Bigger swing potential

No reason you have to buyin full at $2/$5 either. I am currently buying in for $300 ... With a small reload available if I drop down. I am making sure I don't drop more than 2 buyins in a night (and haven't yet). That will leave me OK for $1/$2 but there's just more money on the table at $2/$5.

Since I've started taking shots at $2/$5 this month, I won $1441 in my first session. I won $33 in my next. The table was much tougher and I played too tight. Session 3 I was up $700. Had $1K in front of me. It's now my stop/loss because I lost that full $1K ... nothing terrible, just one bad decision with QQ. If I get up $700 again, I'm walking from the table. Maybe I'll take a break and sit back down.

Also, if your room has must-move 2/5s, play them. When you get moved to the big game, walk away. Go play 1/2 until you can get back on the must move table.

My biggest contributing losing factor is my bankroll.. Like i said i have A LOT of experience online, and have been playing 2x a week for about 3 years now live.

I say my biggest flaw in my game is my bankroll because up until about 6 months ago i was always playing with 1 Buy In ($200), and if i got sucked out on, i had to leave.. This is very unprofitable.. But about 6 months ago i went on a little streak, conserved my money, and was able to start really opening up my game because i knew i had multiple buy in's.. This has DRAMATICALLY increased my profitability ten fold.. I'm a far better player than all my oponents, but when playing in a Loose Aggressive game, Playing deep with multiple buy in's is when i'm most profitable. I'm far from Nieve, and far from a beginner. I have spent more time reading and studying poker, watching videos, than most people have spent playing.

Now that i've built up a proper roll for 1/2 (for the first time in my life) I've become more profitable and have been playing better poker than i ever have in my life (no longer playing with scared money has DRASTICALLY increased my win rate, allowed me to make plays and take lines i never would haev before, and allows me to just play without worry..)

I know that if i go on some cooler's again, and lose my roll for 1/2, i'l be right back to being a 2:1 player, 2 wins, 1 loss, 2 wins 1 loss-- But so long as im' properly rolled like i've been for the past 6 months, My ratio is more like 4:1, 4 wins for every loss, and my wins are like 400-$600, whereas my loss' are never more than $300..

I've wanted to play 2/5 for a very long time, I was mainly just asking for the major differences you'll see in a 2/5 game vs. a 1/2 game-- Also curious about 5/10 -- Is the jump from 2/5 to 5/10 a HUGE difference in player's?

In all honestly, the player's at 1/2 in my home games, and the local casino's are just laughable.. they mize well play their cards face up.. I am completely comfortable in these games, and i feel like i can just run right over them at this point (so long as im' properly rolled)

So i feel like i'm a good enough player to move up, but i dont want to move up under-rolled and go back to being a 2:1 player like i was when underolled at 1/2

If i sat down at a 2/5 -- In Cleveland the buy in is $200-$500 -- I always like to buy in for max amounts so i would probably buy in for $400, and that would give me 3 buy in's...

I just dont want to be losing money by continuing to play 1/2, when i'm definitely ready for 2/5, but i also don't want to move up under-rolled, and hit 3 cooler's, lose my roll, and be right back to playing 1/2 with 1 buy in.

So for a $400 buy in at 2/5 -- What is the MINIMUM number of buy in's you guys would recommend before taking a shot? do you think 5 Buy In's would be enough for me to take a shot?

Is there a lot more 3betting and 4betting in 2/5? Is there a lot more aggression? Do you still have just god awful player's like in 1/2? Or do the actually really good players(like myself) probably playing 5/10?

I'm mainly just asking for the major differences you guys noticed when moving up from 1/2 to 2/5 -- Has anyone moved up and moved back down and why? Has anyone found themselves more profitabel at 1/2 than 2/5 and why? Does anyone think 1/2 and 2/5 play almost exactly the same, or are there HUGE differences?

Okay let me put it into more lamen's term's

In my typically 1/2 game with 10 player's

I'd say at least 6 of them couldn't give you the correct answer to these 3 questions

1.) You flopped a 4 flush, odds of hitting by river (33%)
2.) You have a pocket pair, odds of hitting a set (1 in 7.5)
3.) You have an open ended str8 draw on flop, odds of hitting by river (32%)

and I'd say that out of the 4 player's who can answer those, 3 of them can't answer these questions

1.) Odds of your setting turning into a boat (1 in 3)
2.) What are Implied Odds
3.) Open Ended Straight flush draw vs a set (pretty much a coinflip)

--------

These are all pretty simple questions that ANY GOOD poker player will know the answer too, and that you will need to know the answer to, to be a profitable player.

As i've already said, 9/10 of the peple i play with in 1/2 cannot answer these questions
Hell, half of them have argued with me that there are NO odds in poker because( any two cards can win, and they've won with 7,2 before) This is how bad the player's i play with are.. The hardest part of beating these 1/2 games is not getting drawn out on.. These player's will call ALL IN just because they flopped a flush draw -- There is literally a reg in my home game who will never fold a flopped flush draw, no matter how big the bet, sometimes he will go all in with an open ended straight draw.. It's hardly even poker anymore, there's no putting my opponent on a range, there's no figuring out hands.. I just know if i'm good, and i go all in, cuz i know they'll call.. It definitely increases varience, but out of 100 times i go all in.. 95 of them i'm a favorite. This is my biggest reason for wanting to go up to 2/5-- I would trade in better player's for lower varience.. When i have AA UTG and limp, and 5 people raise to 15 and call-- and i make it 55, i know that no one is folding, and there's no putting an opponent on a range, so i'm just forced to shove any non scary flop.. When it comes J 5 2 RAINBOW, i have to shove.. And then someone turns of J2 for $55 preflop.. It just eats me up, but then i think about the 50x before that, that he called $50 preflop with J2 and missed, or caught a pair of 2's and called my $200 ALL IN and lost

When talking about 2/5 -- What percent of the people at the table would you say CAN answer these questions? Would you say just about everyone in a 2/5 game knows the answer's to those simple questions, or not until you hit 5/10 will every player know basic odds in poker?

Im an amateur no where near your stakes, however I say grind the roll up longer at the small stakes rather than risk it at the larger stakes. You can't afford to take a hit even if it's by some fluke (I was playing at a table I shouldn't of been playing at earlier this morning and my AA all in preflop got cracked by a lucky 2 pair on the flop)

ahhh so you want to play against thinking players? why? Sounds like you are frustrated? How are you going to feel if the same thing happens at 2/5 except you are playing bigger? remember you are at a casino and people are there to gamble. Some people have a fixed amount that they are willing to lose but are just there to have a fun time.

There is nothing wrong in taking shots at a 2/5 game but you should build your roll up more first. If you lose in the 2/5 game and have a bad night at 1/2 guess what you have no more money to play with and know your watching poker on TV and cant get in the action. I say play 1/2 and build it up were you can afford to lose one buy in at 2/5 then go take a shot. Good Luck

lol ... your ideas tilt me. you think just because you move up to $2/$5 that players aren't going to chase flushes or straights? that they're not going to call a raise with a hand you wouldn't? why would you even want that?

i have AA ... i limp/reraise to $55 as you described - and all the players realize i have, so they fold? that's how you want them to play poker against you? or they have QQ and they fold a 10 high flop because you might as well have turned your cards face up?

honestly, i think you need to work on your attitude and continue to play $1/$2.

So over the past 2 years, you have been beating the game, but you don't have the roll for the game you are beating?

Did i get this right?

Also someone mentioned variance, I hope you believe what they say, cause its real.

I completely understand varience, and to the last poster who said, i've been beating the game for 2 years, but still don't have the roll -- This is because of poor money mangement, and lots of bills, and nothing else. I have no reason to come onto a forum and lie about my playing abilties, and say i'm a winning player, when i'm not.. I was only playing 1 day a week usually, and when i won, it'd be on average a $300 win, and when i lost, a $150 loss-- An extra $300 a week isn't going to build me any massive bankroll, and that $300 just made it easier for living expenses, i never was able to tuck it away, and build upon it, i didn't really realize that i could play 5-6 days a week full time and make 2-3x as much as i do at my full time job, mostly because i was playing 1 buy in poker.. Well my recent heater for past few months has allowed me to build up a bit of a roll, and yes, partially my wins are because i've been running good, but an even larger part of that is because i have a bankroll now that i can buy back in.. I won 6 sessions in a row for $500, but all 6 of those sessions i lost my first buy in, now usually, when i lose a buy in, i would have to quit playing because i only had $200 to risk, but since i built up my roll, i was able to rebuy all 6 times, and turn a $500 profit.. This has allowed me to increase my profitability 10 fold.. I have always felt very comfortable in the games, but like u said varience made it very impossible to go on any sort of long runs since i was always playing with one buy in..For the past few months now though i've had multiple buy in's, i've really been able to open up my poker game, and i've really been able to feel like i'm running the table, reading hands excellent, and taking chances and gambling, like i was never able to do.. I know realize how unprofitable one buy in poker was, and that as long as i have a lot of buy in's, i can outplay almost all opponents in the long run at 1/2, which is why i want to try to move up. I know that if i move up to 2-5 and start playing 3-4x a week, and i do well I'll be able to build up a roll that will allow me to actually start to play full time (my lifes dream). I've never played 2/5 in my life before, and was really curious how much of a difference there is between 2/5 and 1/2-- For some reason i haven't really gotten any answers on the difference in play.. Yes i know that people are still going to gamble, and people are still going to draw, but my thinking is, it's much easier for a player to call with a flush draw, or open ender, or gutshot for a $25 bet on the flop, vs a $75 bet on the flop, I feel like i would play better, against better opponents.. I feel like my hand reading skills are exceptional, and that is one of my best parts of my game.. In my 1/2 games though, hand reading is virtually nil, beacuse player's play every hand, and dont care to go all in for $100 preflop with some dumb cards like J5, whereas in 2/5-- i highly doubt anyone is going to call an all in without a very premium holding.. I have player's all preflop all in's all day when they're short stacked with any 2 cards.. I know is sounds stupid that i think i'll be more profitable against better player's, but i honestly think i can be. If i can place my opponent on an actual hand, it gives me a lot more oppurtunities to bluff, whereas in 1/2 i'm just blinding calling a lot of the time praying i have the best hand because most player's have no range.. Trust me, i like playing against no range ******s just as much as the next guy, but i don't like the varience it brings.. When i have AA and go all in on the flop, i dont want the guy calling with just a flush draw, and the guy calling with top pair, and the guy calling with his inside str8 draw all in, that **** wont happen in a 2/5 game (at least i dont think?)

Just want to hear people actual stories and experiences frmo when they moved up from 1/2 to 2/5 and how they did, and what they wish they did different, if they were properly rolled or not, what differences in the game they encountered.. These are the questions i'm looking for answer's to.. All i seem to get are people doubting my playing abilities.. If i wanted someone to doubt my playing abilities, i'd go play for play money on pokerstars.. I'm looking for real world answer's ... I know that i'm a consistent winner at 1/2, that's without question, I've been a consistent winner at 1/2 for a while now, even under rolled i was able to be a consistent winner, Now that i'm properly rolled(or i guess a little under-rolled but able to withstand varience now) I am absolutely crushing the game, I used to just be a consistent winner with 1 buy in, small time though, like 2:1, now that i have proper rolls, i'm more like 5:1 wins to losses... Perhaps i am just on a heater recently, and that 5:1 isn't over a long enough period to say that it's my large bankroll that is influencing my larger returns, but i feel that it play's a large part.

lol

tldr;

If your crushing 1/2 you should be playing 5/10. One buyin is plenty unless you get sucked out on but that doesn't happen.

Love it.

In your benefit the live cash games are not going to get any tougher they will remain soft, there is no reason to jump stakes when your not rolled. Grind 1/2 until you have a roll to play 2/5.

The one thing I don't understand about this thread is that you say you're moving from 1/2 to "2/5". Yet you seem to be talking about live poker. Live poker isn't like online...the most common game you're going to be playing is 2/4 NL if you're moving up from 1/2 NL. The casino's I've played at mostly are Bellagio, Venetian, Aria, and Borgata since I moved to East Coast and none of these casinos have a 2/5 game. So I'm not sure if you're talking about your local casino or something but you're definitely not going to be playing a 2/5 game in Vegas or at any big casino when you're traveling outside of wherever you live.