Of course it costs you time...Isn't it hypocritical for you to tell people that its useless to vote because it costs you time and won't make a difference, when you aren't utilizing all your time towards something that will make a difference though?

How? I'm spending my time on stuff that I like to do, or need to do. Spending x time on something that does nothing is pointless.

This is a terrible argument. Downs paradox yo

Because you've spent time on something that was pointless before, and you will again in the future? We all do, you sitting here and telling others that their vote will make 0 difference is pointless. What purpose does that serve?

It's only pointless if you assume that I have to spend my time fixing the country's problems. I don't think that's how I have to spend my time. I think I should spend my time doing things I find fun or interesting or necessary. Typing this isn't pointless because I enjoy it.

I don't have 11k posts on 2 + 2 because I find posting pointless.

If I thought it important to dedicate all my time to fixing the country's problems I wouldn't spend it voting either for reasons that were in my first post on this.

I mean, if you enjoy dissuading people from voting then I guess it's not pointless. I think it's sad that you enjoy that and I wish you would find something more purposeful to fill that time with.

I suppose that I like to think I live in a world where self-interest isn't the only motivating factor in determining what actions we take. Maybe I'm naive.

I'm not dissuading anyone from anything. I'm saying - and justifying - what I do.

I even said that I'd consider volunteering (I've donated to a couple of things) because then I can persuade several people at once to do something. That's very similar to what my job is at the moment - and that's tangential, my job has very little to do with solving the country's problems.

If everyone takes the mindset of "my vote won't matter, thus I won't vote" then nobody ends up voting. When no one votes, the beliefs and desires of the people aren't represented in government. Then we end up with a government that sucks and doesn't represent the beliefs of its constituents and everybody bitches about how bad the government is. This whole cycle is just pretty ridiculous and infuriating for me. If you genuinely don't care what happens in government and really don't care about any of the major issues at stake / policies that could be made by various politicians, then sure go ahead and not vote. But don't be surprised when you end up with a government that doesn't give a **** about a large portion of its citizens that includes you.

Edit: Curve that FB post is amazing haha. Great read.

That isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that if you want to make a difference, voting isn't it. Donating or volunteering (or standing yourself) are what make a difference.

This bit isn't addressed to you but it follows from the above for some people: voting to make yourself think you're doing something isn't positive action.

I don't know why everyone would do what I do just because I do it.

You are dissuading people whether you intending to or not, even though what you are saying is factually correct. The effort you've spent explaining why an individuals vote is pointless could have been spent talking to someone about a position that is more beneficial to you and society as a whole.

I'm pretty sure I haven't dissuaded anyone in this thread. Anyway, we live in a marketplace of ideas - isn't that something libertarians are meant to agree with me on? The strongest ideas win.

I'm busy ATM so I haven't read this yet or even looked at his conclusion but I figured Nate Silver might have written something about this: http://www.stat.columbia.edu/~gelman...bdecisive2.pdf

For you noobs Nate Silver was Nate tha' Great on 2p2 before he got famous.

I didn't realise that was him. I'd read a summary of that paper, or a similar one.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/...-by-poker.html

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/...te-im-441.html

this discussion is horrible

no u

FWIW I vote, BUT

I'm with sciolist on this. My vote has no effect. More importantly, my vote, or lack of vote, has no effect on other people's decision to vote. Ergo this huge chain reaction people like to point to, where if I don't vote 'OMG the world will stop voting and corrupt governments will come to power' is just hypothetical fear mongering imo.

I agree with you IN THEORY shpanko, I just think practically it's way off. If it ever came to be that I thought there was even a 0.1% chance that my decision of who to vote for, or whether or not to vote, would have ANY effect on the world, I would do so, just in case, even if I didn't want to.

Again, I agree with you in theory, but it annoys me when people so adamantly stand on a hypothetical high horse which has zero effect on reality, at least imo.

You know what's fun? Arguing on the interwebs

i once spent 90 minutes watching this guy convince everyone that his or her individual vote doesn't matter. it was pretty great. and of course he votes.

i'm with sciolist and i think his argument regarding marginal votes is pretty spot on, but i'm also an economist fwiw. right now the marginal impact of most anyone's additional vote is virtually nil, mostly due to the electoral college influence. repubs voting in new york or cali and dems voting in texas have just about no impact whatsoever. but if everyone followed the "i'm not voting because it has no impact at the margin" view, then the value of your vote at the margin will increase. obviously if no one else voted then i would vote every time.

Still worth voting in local elections IMO

you're right poin. just as i hit post i thought about that. it's actually surprising how much other stuff besides president is on a ballot.

I love when ppl say this.

If I dont believe in choice A or choice B, then I should just pick a choice that I dont approve of????

If anything choosing a side and voting just to vote makes you more apathetic to process, instead of being fed the **** up like you should be.

The system is rigged because the boot out 3rd party candidates.