villain appears pretty solid running23/21 13.2% 3bet, aggression factor 2.3 over 500 hands. People rarely bluff people that open UTG post flop, or do they? It seems pretty gross getting it in here, but do u give up everytime?



Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 543453
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $377.05
BTN: $100.00
SB: $102.00
BB: $100.00
Hero (UTG): $102.55

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with K K
Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($8.50) 8 T 3 (2 players)
Hero requests TIME, Hero bets $6, BTN raises to $16, Hero requests TIME

I call and reassess on the turn...

ur facing draws, overpairs, 2 pairs, sets... much of which you still currently beat.... look up the turn and hope for a K or 3 to pair board.

No, I don't fold. And I don't think it's that gross getting it in. Lot's of Axhh hands raise flop, QJ, J9, Q9 etc. I 3b/c all day.

EDIT. And there is no 2 pair in his range really, 108 is a stretch.^^^

op, you said "people don't usually bluff here..." people can bluff here with ease if you are always folding your overpairs. Look at your UTG opening range, and what % of your range continues if you fold everything less than fd's and sets.
Call and play poker IP. I'd probably jam over a brick turn (which is basically everything except a heart or an offsuit ace), or call a brick turn if I think he's overly aggro and will bluff missed draws too much on the river.

this isnt hu, he doesnt have T8s vs an utg open if hes a solid reg. Any card that pairs the board is pretty, he's basically never going to c/r Tx vs an utg open here. Maybe A8s, but that's really rare.

hero is oop, utg v bt

I think either 3bet/calling or calling and getting it in on 'safe' turns is fine. if the turn checks through either lead or cr the river (unless the river improves btns range)

In position calling is fine but oop here I just stick it in

er my bad, misread op, but still I'd flat flop and crai on safe turn cards. he'll likely barrel fd's if he takes this line, so I'd like to trap his fd's for another bet. Getting it in on the flop is probably better than folding, but were in pretty sh*tty shape against his range.

Why would the BTN not flat a hand like this from time to time against an UTG open, especially if it's suited? Having hands like these in your range when you raise suited/connecting flops on the BTN facing a cbet makes your range much more difficult to play against.

I don't agree. After you call his raise, if you check to him on the turn he will likely check back a fd and see a free river to avoid getting c/r off his hand. That's just common sense.

3bet/call the flop since we are oop. If you do want to call, donk all safe turn cards.

I guess he can have T8s here, but if he does then he has J9s/97s too, and our equity vs his range doesnt change a whole lot.

I also hate the idea of donking safe turn cards, you're turning your hand face up, and he's not going to auto check back a lot of draws (Axhh bet/calls cause it has a lot of equity vs our range, J9/97 bet because they can't really take J or 9 high to showdown).

JJ-QQ and a bunch of draws out there, i think 44/call is right

dont need to make it that big really

Call and CRAI basically every turn. He's raising that sort of board in position with a wide range (lots of bluffs and semibluffs in there).

Several people have suggested that you should flat and c/r safe turns. Given that the villain has been described as a good player I think that this is a bad idea, as you hand is turned face up and the villain is likely to play well against you on the turn. If you flat and check safe turns I think villain will be far less likely to bet his draws, especially his weaker ones, as he'll be well aware that your not gonna fold that often.

I would be much more inclined to get it in on the flop OOP. Also I just hate the idea of villain 2.5xing it on the flop and then being able to do whatever he wants on the turn. Bollocks to that, it's going in now.

If your not ready to get it in on this flop 100bbs deep you might as well just check the flop for pot control rather than building the pot. Which is ridculous, as your not deep enough to be pot controlling with overpairs.

Several people have suggested that you should flat and c/r safe turns. Given that the villain has been described as a good player I think that this is a bad idea, as you hand is turned face up and the villain is likely to play well against you on the turn. If you flat and check safe turns I think villain will be far less likely to bet his draws, especially his weaker ones, as he'll be well aware that your not gonna fold that often.

I would be much more inclined to get it in on the flop OOP. Also I just hate the idea of villain 2.5xing it on the flop and then being able to do whatever he wants on the turn. Bollocks to that, it's going in now.

If your not ready to get it in on this flop 100bbs deep you might as well just check the flop for pot control rather than building the pot. Which is ridculous, as your not deep enough to be pot controlling with overpairs.

For those that suggest 3bet/call, what raise size do you like?

when I 3bet im making it ~40

for those that say flat then or crai what do we do if heart or q><6 comes on turn

i think villain can have so many combo flushdraws with gutters
is it better to get it in on flop vs this or risk staking on turn drawing dead?

Why can't he have T8s here?

I could have T8s here. I'm more likely to have T8s than A8s. In fact T8s is in my range here a lot.

And as for the hand I'd likely be 3betting and getting it in.

I misread op, thought villain flatted from blinds. It really doesn't change our equity that much tho imo.

tl;dr - 3betting the flop "just because i know 3betting is +EV and I'm too lazy to think about optimal play" is a ****ty approach.

You are getting it in with like 40% equity at best, its kind of a gross spot to just shovel "because I have kings and I just want to end the pot." If there is a higher EV option, we should do that. I think people either barrel draws too much on the turn here on a brick card, or never. I personally think both are bad, and the way to exploit someone who mostly raises heart draws here and bets the turn too much is to flat here and crai on a non-heart turn. If his hand were face up as Axhh and you knew he'd bet turn, you'd take that line right? The only way to find out what he does on a brick turn is to flat here and crai. It's close in EV, and we get tons of information. If a heart rolls off, that hits sooooooooo much of his range, and we get to just fold w/out being bluffed off the best hand all that often. Since we're folding on the bad cards and getting money in on the good ones, this is good for our equity on the whole (and we make more $ on average this way). If he checks back a brick turn 100%, ok, I think we can reevaluate his flop range and now start to consider 3betting the flop. We'll run into this spot a lot vs good villains though, and it would be nice to have a read on how they analyze the situation.

Also, if he won't bet his weaker draws, then we can include Axhh hands in our flop bet/call range, because a) he'll bluff air/straight draws sometimes and valuebet/call lower flushes on a heart turn, b) we get a cheap showdown with a hand that is almost certainly best if he checks back turn. If you think your range is face up here, it's because you are choosing to construct your range that way, and not because it's impossible to balance here.

Constructing our range with flatting flop and crai on turn also lets us have a c/f range on the turn, which is especially cool with hands like Tx that have card removal vs sets+TP. If you refuse to give yourself the option to flat here, you're folding Tx to a flop raise, and you get bluffed off the best hand a lot vs a good villain.

Good players will check back draws on the turn because they will be check-raised off a decent equity hand a good amount of the time. It's the right move to check back draws if the player flats your flop raise. Why? Because players will check-shove the turn on any safe card and we screw ourselves into seeing the river. So if this player is decent, he WILL check back the turn with draws because that's the right move and get to see two streets set on his own price.

Now, if we have a read that he will barrel draws a lot (bad move on turn if we flat because we check-shove him off his draws A LOT), then you can flat and CRAI, otherwise, 3Bet here and get it in.

id 3bet and call any jam

Also jaglawson, if we flat the flop, our range IS face-up. We never play strong hands like that. We 3Bet/call with strong hands and balance with draws, so a flat is always a medium hand like an overpair or TPTK.

ip i'd call, oop i just get it in.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I start to agree with jaglawson.

When we flat, we can get a lot of information about the raiser on the turn. If he checks back a brick on the turn, it's almost always a draw and sometimes AT. We take note of that and then we can safely fold turns if he ever bets a brick turn. And if he checks back a brick turn and the river is also safe, we can check-call the river because he'll most likely try to bluff us.

If he bets a brick turn and we CRAI and he shows up with AT and a draw, we now can keep doing this line.

If the turn is a heart, he's going to barrel his completed draws. He will check back at AT-type hand (JJ/QQ) and probably strong hands such as sets, so we can easily fold if he bets a diamond turn. Best of all, it's lower variance.