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Old 05-17-2017, 09:36 PM   #1
Kurrency
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How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

100NL 6max

Me - BTN - $130 - JJ
Vil - SB - $100

Villains second hand. I open button for $2.20, he raises to around $8.50, I make it $21 and he shoves. Is this a fold or call?

I gave him a liberal range of AQ+, 99+, in which case I have exactly 50% equity.
So according to that and my calling odds, it would be a clear call. BUT, is the range I assigned him too wide? Am I not giving him enough credit? Who is folding here?
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:56 PM   #2
Oregon Rick
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Against an unknown villain, I would rather call the 3bet and avoid getting into a 4bet/5bet shoving war.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:25 PM   #3
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Before you make it $21 decide whether you are willing to call if he jams.

If no - then just flat the 3bet.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:41 AM   #4
Yacht67
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

But I like what mucknuts said. I think we need to plan ahead before we start 4betting. I think when he jams we can put him on a tighter range of AK+ and QQs. This is also BTN vs Blind. So maybe we include JJ?
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:17 PM   #5
dsuds
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

it's 100nl. why can't he 3bet/5bet 88 or AJ sometimes?
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:52 PM   #6
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsuds View Post
it's 100nl. why can't he 3bet/5bet 88 or AJ sometimes?
Not exactly sure what you're implying here? But 88 is a pretty...generous estimate to include in the general population's 5b range.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:05 PM   #7
dsuds
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mucknuts View Post
Not exactly sure what you're implying here? But 88 is a pretty...generous estimate to include in the general population's 5b range.
implying that people at these stakes are capable of doing that. you won't find that at <10nl, but yes for the population it is generous to include
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:35 PM   #8
Kurrency
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

I felt like since it was button vs small blind, 99+ AQ+ was a good average. Some players are looser and will throw in 5b bluffs. Some are tighter, will flat my 4b with 99-JJ and AQ, and I end up being way behind their range here. But given the late positions and it being V's first hand I saw, I felt like this was an appropriate average range.

I have watched this exact scenario unfold at 2000NL (I wasnt playing, just observing) and the button calls here with jacks. Now, I don't know the hand history between those players and just because he's playing 2knl doesn't mean he's good. But, it kindof made me wonder if JJ should be the lowest hand I'm generally willing to call with here, against an unknown. I think I would probably fold TT or call the 3b.

As far as calling the 3b with jacks, I feel like players 3b bluff enough from the SB vs button to where I don't really wanna call and let his random overs hit, so I think 4betting is more profitable here.

Any more thoughts?
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:36 PM   #9
Kurrency
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Although, maybe I'm way off and 99+ AQ+ is still way too generous, I'm not sure. That's why I'm asking
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:07 PM   #10
mucknuts
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Readless i think you're being too optimistic. The generic 100nl player punting 99 in vs someone who's a random to them would be very rare.
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Old 05-20-2017, 02:38 AM   #11
Kurrency
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mucknuts View Post
Readless i think you're being too optimistic. The generic 100nl player punting 99 in vs someone who's a random to them would be very rare.
Yea, thats what I'm thinking now. I guess its a fold in this case, but what about SB vs BB? same situation, against a total unknown.

Also, I hate to just call his 3b pre, it seems like Im missing out on so much value, but I guess its better than 4betting and being pushed out.
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Old 05-23-2017, 12:08 PM   #12
omgPirate
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

With opens 2bb, 3bet 8bb and 4 bet 20bb, 100bb deep and with btn opening 50% of his hands, the GTO is : BB should 3bet for value AJ+/99+ (or any other repartition which give same frequencies, I guess AQ+/77+ is roughly the same), and btn should 4 bet for value AQ+/JJ+.
So 4bet calling is GTO. Up to you to figure if your opponent 3bets enough and calls 4bets loose enough for GTO to be your optimal play. Think the others covered that, probably not ok in NL100 vs unknown reg without some history.

But in any case, if you don't call the shove, you most likely should just call the 3 bet. Only exception would be vs a player which you noticed calls 4 bets oop a lot including with his speculative hands, which is rather rare.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:06 PM   #13
Hrmmmm
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

You guys always have too wide of ranges for your villains because you watch too much high stakes poker. So many people make this mistake.
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Old 05-23-2017, 03:09 PM   #14
Loder89
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Re: How wide to call 5bet shove BTN vs SB?

Standard 5bet range at NL100 is AK, JJ/QQ+. You might occasionally see wider jams, but then again some players are a little tighter and just call 4bets with some of these hands.
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