this is rush poker. i think he's a tag. haven't really played with him.

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $208.40
BB: $442.50
UTG: $247.10
MP: $200.00
CO: $208.15
Hero (BTN): $328.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BTN with T Q
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, 1 fold, BB calls $5

Flop: ($15.00) J 9 K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8, BB calls $8

Turn: ($31.00) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $21, BB calls $21

River: ($73.00) A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $60, BB raises to $406.50 all in, Hero requests TIME,

KQdd?? a bad AJ enough or slowplayed AK enough???

wow v. tricky spot without reads. almost so much so any advice is worthless.

some villians can show up with air, some with AJ for value, too. I'd discount AK, but I guess it's possible.

most of the time tho this is QJdd, KQdd. I'd fold. If you know for a fact he can (and will) turn most of his made hands into bluffs, this might turn into a call.

A ton of the Kxdd and Jxdd hands raise turn for value. And even QJdd raise turn sometimes. Just seems like spew. I probably call.

Oh and bet more on flop/turn.

And if you're b/f, what do you hope to get a call from on the river that doesn't raise flop/turn? AK?

i very much disagree
two pair, ahxh, a hero call king

why in the world did you bet $8 on the flop?

Are you really suggesting checking back the river?

I would bet more on the flop and turn and I would prob fold to his river shove, I think he has a flush so often, Most players wouldn't do this with 2 pair.

no i think hes suggesting that he cant fold that river when betted.

Villain is not value shoving 2pair this deep and obviously he doesn't have a set given how the action played out and the board texture. I also doubt he's turning his hand into a bluff given how wet the board is, your aggression, and most people, even most regs, just don't have the stomach to pull this big of a bluff. All that's left by deductive reasoning is the flush. Flop and turn sizing definitely needs to be bigger btw.

This is so wrong lol.Ahxh is not calling river, ever, especially from a TAG and probably plays it more aggressively. Please tell me which hands on this board go c/c, c/c, c/s? that would not go c/c, c/r, b/c or c/s.

To start. Do you agree that villain raises flop or turn with a hand that has a decent amount of equity with these stack sizes? If you think villain does then he will NEVER c/c flop and turn. but will either c/r on one of the streets or lead turn for close to pot.

kingofcuriosity you are wrong that Kxdd,Jxdd c/r the turn as a default. and i'd probably call since there are only 2-3 combos that beat us

Question is if this is ever T8s. But probably not. He can legitimately have a lot of diamonds here and so do you, I'd fold.

This is true, it isn't default but some % of the time villain will do this kxdd, less so with jxdd. But what I don't understand is why villain c/s river instead of value betting. Our value range on the river is quite small with this river card if we don't have a flush so wouldn't he be more likely to bet river?

People get overexcited when they hit backdoor draws that they feel are disguised. Also, in order to bet this river we have to have a very strong value range.

Yes, strong but small. And wouldn't some sets even fall into the top of our checking range? I just think on the river our calling range should be something like strong 2 pair sets and straights so it would be better for villain to bet for value if he has a flush?

I think you may be right that donking could be best, but it is a non-standard play and therefore doesn't really add much to an argument against a flush. Not value betting a set here is pretty ridiculous.

Ok so we establish that with sets we always b/f river due to prev action and sometimes b/f strong 2 pair, so our hand is essentially playing like a weak set or strong 2 pair if we b/f by default? So people that are against calling are saying that we can only call river with a flush?

Oh ftr if this is a different diamond I think it makes river way easier to fold.

Hero should always be value betting sets here.

There are very few hands that hero would call a donk with that he is not value betting himself, I mean are you really calling a donk on the river with kq? It also gets no value from our air, And it eliminates any chance of getting our whole stack with a hand like we have.

I never said KQ is a call on the river(1 pair fyi, not 2 like my statement says is the bottom of our b/f range and somewhere near the top of our checking range) You're saying that our value range is the same as our calling range therefore villain should let us value bet and let us set the price so he can shove for value with something other than a flush?

And do you really think a hand like AK or KJ NEVER calls river when bet into but checks behind if checked too?

Also we never get to the river with air and bet that card.

his range is flushes and pairs turned into bluffs. his bluffing frequency can be assumed to be rather low. fold

Sorry its early and i'm having trouble making sense of that.

Can you explain this, where did I say that he would c/shove worse than a flush?

I didn't say that ak or kj never calls a river donk, I said that it doesn't matter because we should bet them when checked to anyway.

Even if what you say is correct and he should donk a flush it doesn't matter because that is not the standard play and he is more likely to c/shove.

Ok you didn't say c/s without a flush but you're saying he villain should c/c so that he gets value from our air right? What if we bet like $30 on river because we know we can't get raised by anything other than a flush and villain has to call with a set/straight but would have been able to get more value if he had just bet. And we should NOT be betting KJ and AK here often, only vs a calling station really because we don't get called by worse and have showdown value.

And donking a flush is standard(more +EV) because our calling range is >> betting range OTR. Because villain chooses to c/s is what makes this line non standard.

Clarified?

I would lean towards a fold in a normal game unless there was epic history. Not sure how rush changes peoples ranges but I wouldn't be inlcined to belive that he is bluffing all to often

I get the logic here but it's mathematically unproven. That is, let us assume that when you bet/call $60 with a flush on this river, you stand to win $60 more often than when you check/raise, because villain will call with more hands than he bets. However you stand to win a bigger pot when you DO check/raise; the % of the pot he bets when checked to, as well as the possibility of his entire stack. So it's unclear intuitively which play is superior.

I think you're probably right, but never underestimate the value of the big bet; it usually only has to be called a fractional percentage for it to have more +EV than a smaller bet

how do u bet this small on this board texture on the earlier streets w anything let alone the nuts 200 bb deep.

. I call, he can only have KQ and QJd and JT for the flush.