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flop decision with TT flop decision with TT

11-18-2011 , 07:09 PM
So I open with TT UTG+1 to 6bucks in a 1-2 six handed game. Gets CC from CO and Button raises to 22. he got 280 or something and I cover. So I call and so does CO. Button is a good regular and he hasnt got out of line so far.

Flop comes 266 rainbow. I check, Co checks Button bets 38or something.

What do I do here?

How about preflop? Ds anyone ever lead this flop in this spot?
11-19-2011 , 05:10 AM
The reason I asked this question is that I think this is one of the hardest spots to be in OOP. any advice on how to deal with it is appreciated.
One thing I forgot is My image. UTG and UTG+1 I play tight but in late position I am really LAG. So nothing out of the ordinary.

How Many of you just fold this preflop OOP against a good player with stacks this deep? And if not When do you fold? 88?
11-19-2011 , 06:54 AM
What do you think BTNs squeezing range is and what's your flatting range vs the squeeze given positions/stack sizes?
11-19-2011 , 07:49 AM
Since he is in position I would guess that his range is JJ+,AQo+. But this is What makes it so hard. He Could be raising a lot of hands as semibluffs since I dont have à good read on him, which usually is the case when multitabling. But given stacksizes it doesnt make sense in reraising preflop and on this flop it is hard playing the hand. If i lead I Could induce à raise from overcards in which case I am forced to fold with no read. If I just call the flop I put myself in for an all-in decision on turn or river or that it goes c-c turn and river in which way I set myself up for losing maximum and winning minimum.

I guess best play is putting in à slighly larger raise than minraise on flop and not putting any more money in after that. Only Problem with that is if villain shoves with OCas there is very likely that I do this play with exactly the hand I have or with air, we are doing a big mistake folding...
11-19-2011 , 08:57 AM
I don't like raising flop at all. Either check/call or check/fold are usually the best options. If we check/call we will face tough decisions later on, just need to be aware of this because there's no way around it.
We're bluffcatching and we'll face tough decisions. On top of that his bluffs will usually have good equity against our hand (two overcards or at least one overcard and he has the option to realize it being IP). I'd guess that JJ is in our flatting range PF and so is QQ at least a non-0 percent of the time. Feels like we can construct our range in a way that allows us to check/call flop and check/fold turn with TT but kind of depends on how many AQ or AK combos we have in our flatting range and what bluff frequencies we expect from villain.

We can check/fold and treat it like a setmine if we expect his range to be strong.
11-19-2011 , 09:27 AM
Don't raise flop, c/c and take it from there.

Folding pre is also an option.
11-19-2011 , 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda
Don't raise flop, c/c and take it from there.

Folding pre is also an option.
... Take it from there. So I call and CO folds. Pot is now 140 and villain has 220 left as do I.

So whats our strategy?

We c/f any Q,K,A right? How about J and less, except T of course.
What if the Turn goes C/C? Does we fold to river bet if there is an Q,K,A on turn or river? if there is 9 high on river and villain bets 70 on river after checking turn do we fold expecting villain to have JJ,QQ most of the time?
What Rivers do we bet and expect to get paid off?

My point is that against a percieved good opponent but with no special reads in a situation like this It has to be reallly -EV to have a strategy of calling flop and then take it "from there" there is so many ways to make mistakes on turn and river that it is nearly impossible to make calling flop +EV.

I think that by raising flop to 90 and making that our last contribution to the pot I think we give us the best chance of winning the pot. Investing 90 for winning 104 we only need 50% fold for this to be + EV.Granted JJ+ is never folding but all other holdings most likely will. on the flop it is also a higher chance that villain is just making a C-Bet with overcards.

For info I ended up folding in the actual hand but in retrospect I think the ranking of actions taken are

Raise/fold/call

If you think that calling is superior I really would appreciate a runthrough of how you are thinking and acting on later streets.
11-19-2011 , 11:05 AM
Well you put him on a range and see how much what cards help him vs your range and then you'll roughly know what kind of hands you need to call down with and what you can fold.

Quote:
My point is that against a percieved good opponent but with no special reads in a situation like this It has to be reallly -EV to have a strategy of calling flop and then take it "from there" there is so many ways to make mistakes on turn and river that it is nearly impossible to make calling flop +EV.
Well you can always try to play as close to GTO as you can get. If he's a decent villain and you'll play him more often you shouldn't be concerned about making a +EV flop call in a vacuum but rather also about combatting his squeezing etc.
If you can't find +EV calldowns on this board and various runouts then flatting TT PF and playing it as anything but a setmine is likely a mistake.

You don't just "take it from there". Calling down to bluffcatch in these spots can be analyzed fairly well away from the tables using flopzilla etc. So once you c/c flop you should already know what hands in your range you'd c/c on this flop and how you play what turns+rivers.

Quick rundown:
Assumption: He only squeezes strong hands
Gameplan: Setmine, c/f all boards that don't contain a T

Assumption: He has a bluff squeezing range
Assumption 2: He'll probably mostly squeeze random Ax hands and broadways due to blockers...his range could be something like: TT+, AQ, AK; AJ, AT, KQ, KJ as a bluff and some random Ax hands let's say A5o to rep those
He may or may not squeeze AQ, TT etc for value against CO. We can improve the range by knowing if he flats suited aces, SCs in these spots for arguments sake we'll say he flats those and small pairs.

Vs that range we probably 4bet bluff some or flat wider. We'll 4bet for value with AA-QQ and half or more of the AK combos; we'll flat 99+, AQ and the other AK combos and we'll 4bet bluff some random stuff like AJ or whatever some time. Note that you can have completely different ranges here and be fine just some random tightish range for arguments sake..

On a flop of 662 we flop 46 combos total (used AKo, AQ, 99-JJ because I was lazy), against a halfpot bet we want to defend roughly 67%...so about 31 combos. 18 combos are overpairs, the rest are overcards...if we check/call JJ-99 and 13 overcard combos (lets say the three AQ combos with a BDFD and 10 AK combos) we get to the turn with this range:
JJ-99; 10xAK, 3xAQs...thats 34 combos; 67% = 23 combos
- on a blank low card we have 18 overpairs so we need to call 5 more combos
- on a Q we have 3xTPTK and 18 underpairs...this is the worst card for us and I'd probably fold a ton
- on A/K we have 9/12 combos of TP

You get the idea. Now look at his range, estimate how likely he is to bluff and correct the calling frequencies up/down. You could only ch/call overpairs if you want to but that'll put you in dumb spots on A,K turns it all depends on how much you think he bluffs.

Last edited by clowntable; 11-19-2011 at 11:26 AM.
11-19-2011 , 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nirwanda
Don't raise flop, c/c and take it from there.

Folding pre is also an option.
This, especially if

Quote:
Since he is in position I would guess that his range is JJ+,AQo+
Is his sq range here (which seems somewhat ridic unless he's a uber nit)
11-19-2011 , 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoDOH
Since he is in position I would guess that his range is JJ+,AQo+.
Since he is in position his range would be stronger?
11-19-2011 , 03:00 PM
Thanks for the thorough and very well thought out response. Got a couple more questions though.
Quote:
My point is that against a percieved good opponent but with no special reads in a situation like this It has to be reallly -EV to have a strategy of calling flop and then take it "from there" there is so many ways to make mistakes on turn and river that it is nearly impossible to make calling flop +EV.
Quote:
Well you can always try to play as close to GTO as you can get. If he's a decent villain and you'll play him more often you shouldn't be concerned about making a +EV flop call in a vacuum but rather also about combatting his squeezing etc.
The best way of dealing with his squeeze-play is to reraise preflop with a wide range of hands. Since we are on this flop and have a decision to make, with no especial history or reads, shouldnt the best choice both for metagames and in this particular hand be to reraise his flopbrt?
I understand all about putting opponents on handranges and together with boardtextures making the right decisions. My problem is that with no special reads on a perceived to be good player there still is going to be a guessing game where we even if we could read hands like a god and make exceptionally good postflop decisions still have 2 huge monkeys on our back.
1. If we are ahead on flop our opponent still have 6 outs most of the time and probably fold equity on up to 4 more. Thing is if we play check check we more or less turn our hand upside down giving villain the chance to vb us if he hits his card or bluff us if a scarecard shows up. And when we are behind we are way behind...
2. We dont control when and how the money goes in the pot with this way of playing. With this I mean that we only make money essentially when we are catching bluffs. I rather have AK and call down on this flop then TT...

Calling down for metagame purposes when there arent any previous history to speak of is in my mind wrong. I would pick a better spot when about to start building a reputation/history with villain.
11-19-2011 , 06:49 PM
Meh I think without additional reads on villain's bareling tendancies I might use this specific hand to call flop and fold turn with or just give up on the flop. One problem with this particular board is that villain's still got 25% equity with his overcards against you, might not stop bareling with them and very little chance you can turn your hand into a bluff unless you want to rep quads.

BTW, awesome post clowntable.

      
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