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Old 08-11-2010, 06:48 AM   #176
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

11k hands???
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Old 08-11-2010, 08:39 AM   #177
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Solid play is all about +ev as stated by clown. Nitty is profitable for sure but certainly not optimal.

Solid, in my opinion, is defined by the theories explained well in the SSNLH book. Whether you play 9/2 or 49/48 you are only going to make money by being good at judging when to use your steal equity and when to use your showdown equity. Someone who excels on picking opponents apart and knows when they are either ahead or can make them fold will quite clearly benefit from a LAG approach.

A beginner should always start off nitty (he's a beginner so he's not solid, is he??) and probably make a slow profit and at the same time come to grips with multitabling. Experience brings with it the ability to stop being so nitty and widen your range considerably. All styles are profitable if you can know where you are in a hand more often than not.

Solid poker is stealing or going to showdown at the correct times. If you were absolutely the best in the world at this then 2 7 UTG would be a playable hand.

Me personally, i showdown too much!!!
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:07 AM   #178
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by Ra_Z_Boy View Post
11k hands???
qft
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Old 08-12-2010, 02:11 PM   #179
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by ChuckNoriss View Post
Solid play is all about +ev as stated by clown.
Yeah, we all strive to make +EV decisions. But here's the truth: most people fool themselves into thinking that their very marginal, thin calls are +EV when in truth, if they played more solidly, they'd be making a lot more money. Being solid doesn't mean passing on some very thin +EV spots, it means recognizing that you DON'T really know what's +EV or what's not, and opting to take the more conservative line in those situations.

It's ridiculous to imply, as many have, that I'm asserting people should purposefully avoid +EV decisions. But as the dick-swinging in this thread indicates, many players grossly over-estimate their skill, and their ability to turn situations that are +EV for Phil Galfond into +EV situations for themselves.
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:06 PM   #180
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
Yeah, we all strive to make +EV decisions. But here's the truth: most people fool themselves into thinking that their very marginal, thin calls are +EV when in truth, if they played more solidly, they'd be making a lot more money. Being solid doesn't mean passing on some very thin +EV spots, it means recognizing that you DON'T really know what's +EV or what's not, and opting to take the more conservative line in those situations.

It's ridiculous to imply, as many have, that I'm asserting people should purposefully avoid +EV decisions. But as the dick-swinging in this thread indicates, many players grossly over-estimate their skill, and their ability to turn situations that are +EV for Phil Galfond into +EV situations for themselves.
Again, OP, not trying to pick on you (I've read lots of other stuff itt that I disagree with, but, hey, you're the OP). If someone is not good enough to realize if a marginal spot is +EV or -EV and they simply take the conservative line, they are not "being solid" or making more money. Rather, they are simply avoiding variance since the conervative line is not likely to be more or less EV.

Now, a poor (or not so great player) can try to not put himself in that marginal situation to begin with, which is what I think you are trying to say. Good players can put themselves into those situations because they can ake the right decisions in marginal situations. Bad players can't. I get that, but I think you're wording is off.

In fact, for those players itt that believe (not delusionally) that they have a good size edge and can make those difficult decisions better than their opponents, then you are likely to develop into a laggier player and you should specifically try to put the above-described opponents in those situations because they'll make more mistakes than you will. This involves playing more hands pre, floating, barreling, etc.

To those players who are not at that level, OP's advice is def important to recognize -- you're gonna get outplayed if you put yourself into marginal spots. So try to avoid them and "play solid." That said, you're never going to improve if that's how you consistently play, and that's my beef with OP. Move down and experiment with unorthodox lines and see how players react to them. Play a crazy laggy style that forces you to hand read in dificult situations. It might cost you a little shortterm money, but the divdends pay off long-term when you can move to higher stakes and beat the regfish + the fish and eventually the solid regs. In fact, I played HU religiously against better opponents when I was starting off and it converted me from an average OP syle player to beating the mid and high stakes.

Sorry for typos, but I'm playing right now.

edit: a big part of the game is innate instinct in that you can just recognize that philosophical viewpoint that your opponent takes to the game and then exploit that. That only comes from extensive play in marginal spots.

Last edited by fds; 08-12-2010 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 08-12-2010, 03:55 PM   #181
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
Yeah, we all strive to make +EV decisions. But here's the truth: most people fool themselves into thinking that their very marginal, thin calls are +EV when in truth, if they played more solidly, they'd be making a lot more money. Being solid doesn't mean passing on some very thin +EV spots, it means recognizing that you DON'T really know what's +EV or what's not, and opting to take the more conservative line in those situations.

It's ridiculous to imply, as many have, that I'm asserting people should purposefully avoid +EV decisions. But as the dick-swinging in this thread indicates, many players grossly over-estimate their skill, and their ability to turn situations that are +EV for Phil Galfond into +EV situations for themselves.
Ye i see exactly what you're saying. How the hell are you supposed to know whats +ev if you cant see the other guys cards? So play it safe!
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Old 08-12-2010, 04:30 PM   #182
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by ChuckNoriss View Post
Ye i see exactly what you're saying. How the hell are you supposed to know whats +ev if you cant see the other guys cards? So play it safe!
I don't think that's what I'm saying either.
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Old 08-12-2010, 05:13 PM   #183
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

pretty awesome thread, alot to take in right now
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:59 AM   #184
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
Yeah, we all strive to make +EV decisions. But here's the truth: most people fool themselves into thinking that their very marginal, thin calls are +EV when in truth, if they played more solidly, they'd be making a lot more money. Being solid doesn't mean passing on some very thin +EV spots, it means recognizing that you DON'T really know what's +EV or what's not, and opting to take the more conservative line in those situations.
Wow a ton of sick posts in this thread, thanks for kicking this off CW. I feel the dominating issue in this thread is marginal situations. This term "marginal situations" is a relative one. What some beginner thinks is a marginal situation maybe a crystal clear decision to a more experienced player (obv but I think some people are missing that). The better you are the less marginal situations you will encounter, (b/c marginal situations are harder to find when your good) but there will always be marginal spots.

And b/c these spots are inevitable having a default plan helps; -> 'and opting to take the more conservative line in those situations' is a good plan and I will explain why. first off, when CW says conservative he means folding, there is no other conservative way about it. What I don't get is the notion that; if you fold when you arrive at a marginal decision your game development will be static and in order to be a better player you should experiment by bluff shoving or calling down etc. etc. This is absolute nonsense. You can get just as good at marginal situations if you fold then later replay the hand in your mind, post it on two plus two, replay other hands with villain etc. etc. eventually you might come across a small piece of info that you missed like; villain seems to pot control turn a lot with weakish top pair/mid pair hands so when he is jamming the turn my tptk is not good a huge % amount of the time. So now with this newly gained tid bit of information the situation you were in is no longer a marginal one!. What you learn from this situation will develop your game. You can learn by passing in marginal spots you just have to do your HW.

And for those of you saying that CW is suggesting that we try not to put ourselves in marginal spots all I have to say is that these spots are inevitable no matter how you try to avoid them. Oh and If your about to pass b/c you dont want to be in a marginal spot, guess what? your already in one

FDS- what you said discounting big hand big pot theory was perfectly put I could not agree more.

Last edited by bezzer11; 08-13-2010 at 06:06 AM.
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Old 08-13-2010, 01:06 PM   #185
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

nano is not a TAG, he runs like 25/21. He's more aggressive pre than most of the msnl players.
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:37 PM   #186
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Why do veneer and citizenwind remind me so much of tubasteve, thats probably why they dont play past ssnl
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Old 08-13-2010, 05:54 PM   #187
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

I've played quite a bit of 2/4?
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Old 08-13-2010, 06:11 PM   #188
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Cliffs: If you are not a top talent in the poker world and trying to LAG it up, then best to play it safe a nit. If you are very very good at poker, then best to tl;dr.
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:44 AM   #189
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq View Post
no, because Jacob will move up and start beating the nosebleeds after he learns how to play his style correctly
this
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:38 PM   #190
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Play like Edward, read minds, profit.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:52 PM   #191
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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I've played quite a bit of 2/4?
5k hands is a lot?
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Old 10-05-2010, 08:02 AM   #192
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Awesome post.
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Old 10-05-2010, 10:49 AM   #193
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

There is a better way to explain this topic.

First off, the people saying LAGs will play better post-flop because they are used to a wider range...well, that's not completely correct. Just playing loose doesn't mean anything. Experience is what lets you know what certain actions mean. An experience Nit/TAG will know play post-flop the more they pay attention (I was going to say "the more hands you play," but if you play a million hands and don't pay attention to important details and what they mean, you won't learn much). The only difference is that a TAG and a LAG will be used to playing with a certain range strength. On average, a LAG's range is weaker because it contains more hands.

Now, BOTH styles are profitable if you play solid and straight-forward. Many players misinterpret what a successful LAG does. The reason a player becomes a LAG is NOT to simply run over the competition. Let's be honest, you think you're going to be running over anyone as you move up limits? They'll simply call you down lighter or bluff-raise your thin value-bets more (and in the RIGHT spots) to own your ass.

If you want to be a LAG, you have to accept the fact that you will have to give up more post-flop than a TAG. Constant aggression won't always get you out of a jam. As I said, observant players will recognize that your range is weak on average and bluff-raise/call down light and you'll end up spewing to them.

I'll tell you how one transition from TAG to LAG:

TAG ---> Bad LAG: You see other players being LAG and from your point of view, they are running over people. So you decide to open up your range and amp up your aggression. You don't realize that players will know your range is weak and you end up spewing to them. These kind of LAGs think that because they play a wider range, they have to just be more aggressive all-around to continue winning the same percentage of pots they won as a TAG. This is what causes those silly 4B/5B leveling wars or players check-raise flops "that doesn't hit villain much" or players going bet/bet/shove even though the board hits villain's range quite nice and%Proxy-Connection: keep-alive
Cache-Control: max-age=0

he isn't folding.
Now, you probably were spewy as a TAG, but since you weren't involved in as many pots as when you are playing LAG, you didn't lose as much. Being spewy is a winrate-killer. Think about this:

Let's say once a day, you spew off 1 stack, so after each session you're down 100bb more than you should be if you just played solid and straight-forward. After 30 days in the month, you're down 3000bb more than you would be if you played correctly. I'm pretty every mofo on this board could use an extra 30 buy-ins for their limit each month. Just because you don't lose your whole stack in a hand doesn't mean spew isn't hurting. Every time you make a bad check-raise or a spewy call, it counts...it adds up. Fact is, most of you probably spew off more than 100bb per day but you probably don't realize it.

Let's say you played 60k hands in a month as a 1ptbb/100 winner. You win 12 buy-ins. Now remember those 30 buy-ins you spewed off one buy-in per day? Let's add those on. You're not at 42 buy-ins. You'd be a 3.5ptbb/100 winner.

Now let's see what the transition from TAG ---> Good LAG is like:

When a TAG becomes a good LAG, it's because he pays attention to post-flop play and after many, many hands, he says "ok, I have a good grasp on spotting weakness post-flop and using the board texture to represent certain hands in my range at the appropriate time." He then decides to loosen up his range because now that he can knows the spots that makes certain moves profitable, it doesn't matter so much what his hand is. Of course, he still makes moves with equity, in case he needs to show up with a hand, but he now doesn't have to wait for certain hands in order to make moves. Of course, he also recognizes the spots where it's pointless to make a move because it won't work, so he'll give up on those spots (these spots show up more often than you think), thus NOT spewing.

One more thing: Don't confuse straight-forward with being ABC.
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Old 10-05-2010, 12:02 PM   #194
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Very good post Joker.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:35 PM   #195
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

with all due respect to Clowntable who is probably a very very good player. I think OP's post is geared towards the many many regs who are trying to understand the videos they watch, articles they read, and improve their games at the low limits to the point of just being profitable. Yes "solid" play as defined by OP may not put you on track to being Phil Ivey as fast as constantly putting yourself in marginal situations will, however it pays the bills which may be more important to a lot of people. I have a feeling 99% of the people on 2p2 would be more than happy to hit their poker peak at making ~80k a year at 200NL. Not everyone aspires to be a 5000NL soulpwner.
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Old 10-05-2010, 03:51 PM   #196
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

a) I'm neither very, very good nor very good
b) Can't play solid as advised by OP on FTP anymore, too much of a RB hit
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:03 PM   #197
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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I disagree with your implicit definition of solid play. 5bet bluffing and check/calling marginal hands 3x are all solid in my book as long as the reasoning behind it is solid.

If you are convinced your play is +EV you will tilt less because you know you made the right play the outcome is just results.

What is not solid is 5bet shoving because "he may fold" without really having any read. If you do that and are wrong, chances are you'll tilt.

For me solid play is trying to figure out what the best play is in any given hand and chosing it.
It's not solid to autofold PF, it's not solid to bet/fold river without thinking about it and it's not solid to fold to a CR without putting villain on a range.

Both Edward and Jacob do not play solid because they chose following mantras over trying to play perfectly.
5Bet bluff-shoving is part of the 3B/4B/5B leveling war, which is, at best, marginal. Unless someone is 4Bet/folding waaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy more than they are 4Bet/calling, 5Bet bluff-shoving is marginal (usually -EV). That's definitely not the case these days. You won't find many players having a heavily weighted 4Bet range that skewed towards bluffs. They'll have bluffs, but they'll also widen their 4Bet/calling range.

Think about it: guy opens to 3bb, you 3B to 10bb, he 4B to like 22bb and you shove 100bb. The guy has to be folding like 4/5 times for you to breakeven. Obviously your bluff hand doesn't have 0 equity against his calling range so you will win some of the times you're called, but even with that in mind, the player has to fold a lot.

And don't give me the "oh, I had some read that he'd fold this time." Unless you have some extensive history and you know he has a specific bet-sizing and a certain timing tell (that ISN'T manipulated), you don't know for sure he's going to fold, so don't be silly. It's also silly to say "if you're convinced it's +EV," you mean if you have a feeling because unless you have the tells that I just described (good luck ever getting tells like that), then your "convincing +EV spot" is just a stubborn, spewy play.

C/C three times post-flop isn't comparable to 5B bluff-shoving because c/c three times is way more situational. Most of these "I think it's +EV" plays are stubborn and/or fancy plays that are just plan spewy. Straight-forward play is solid, not stubborn/fancy play. Unfortunately, not everyone here knows about straight-forward play because you guys confuse it with ABC play or "playing by the book" (in other words, playing with a certain set of rules).

Btw, I auto-fold 72o in the MP before the UTG acts, am I not playing solid? :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by clowntable View Post
a) I'm neither very, very good nor very good
b) Can't play solid as advised by OP on FTP anymore, too much of a RB hit
Also, no offense to people who are arguing over the whole rakeback thing, but when you play solid at your limit...you won't give a crap about rakeback because the rakeback you get will only be a small portion of your winnings...basically pocket change. Nothing to go crazy over.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:33 PM   #198
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

i ****ing hate this forum. why the **** post **** like this. seriously, do u want to make the games harder?

i mean, jesus. its so ****ing stupid.

Just becuase u want to be mentally masturbated, why not do it in private.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:36 PM   #199
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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i ****ing hate this forum. why the **** post **** like this. seriously, do u want to make the games harder?

i mean, jesus. its so ****ing stupid.

Just becuase u want to be mentally masturbated, why not do it in private.
Relax, nothing said in this thread will make anyone that much better. This is just a discussion and the advice given is pretty vague, so yea people still have to think for themselves to improve their game.
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Old 10-05-2010, 04:55 PM   #200
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
And don't give me the "oh, I had some read that he'd fold this time." Unless you have some extensive history and you know he has a specific bet-sizing and a certain timing tell (that ISN'T manipulated), you don't know for sure he's going to fold, so don't be silly. It's also silly to say "if you're convinced it's +EV," you mean if you have a feeling because unless you have the tells that I just described (good luck ever getting tells like that), then your "convincing +EV spot" is just a stubborn, spewy play.
I explicitly said the reasoning behind it needs to be solid. There's a bunch of players at SSNL who 4bet way too often and not having a 5bet bluff range is just burning money against them (and this obviously starts which your 3bet range which will be constructed to include hands that you can 5bet shove which you might normally flat with).
There's also people where you can predict very accurately that they get pissed or tilt and 4bet you way too wide

tl;dr: OP didn't do the greatest job of defining his terms imo
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