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Old 08-04-2010, 07:17 PM   #151
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by WorldBoFree View Post
Ok, so, can you write a long post that is better for us then, instead of these useless posts?
If you thought it was useless then you are dumb imo.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:28 PM   #152
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

if fds post doesn't help you then you should just be playing "abc".
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:29 PM   #153
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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If you thought it was useless then you are dumb imo.
If you think I am dumb, you are useless imo
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:31 PM   #154
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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If you think I am dumb, you are useless imo
If you think I am useless then you are dumb. We can go all day buddy! Maybe you should just read OP since fds' post will not be applicable to you.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:47 PM   #155
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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if fds post doesn't help you then you should just be playing "abc".
It doesn't help me at all. You know why? Because it's a typical ego based reply to someone who is trying to help and start a good discussion.

Instead of disagreeing politely, and furthering the discussion, it's just an overall dismissal of a post that someone wrote to help and start a discussion about poker , even though he admits that 3 of the 7 concepts he agrees with, accept he doesn't like the semantics.

Whenever someone posts something on an internet thread with the tone of "you are wrong and I am right", with no gray area left to ponder, it not useful. this is a post done from one's ego, to make himself feel better about his own knowledge and self, and put others down, instead of furthering the discussion. This is not helpful, especially when it usually starts an argument and gets away from constructive, reasonable discussion.
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:49 PM   #156
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

No it isn't. He has went through the points one at a time and included information on why he disagrees that its good advice. How is that not useful or good for furthering discussion? In fact its probably the best reply on the whole thread in BOTH REGARDS. He was also perfectly civil.

If you think it was just an ego post. Re read OP since it is not applicable to you....
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Old 08-04-2010, 07:49 PM   #157
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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If you think I am useless then you are dumb. We can go all day buddy! Maybe you should just read OP since fds' post will not be applicable to you.
you have 14K + posts, you are smarter and better than me, obviously.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:03 PM   #158
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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you have 14K + posts, you are smarter and better than me, obviously.
He did have a good informative post. How many of them have you had? You just come in here and start criticizing.

Now let the people who have something useful to say post. I have been reading this thread all along and I find posts with very good arguments on both sides. Now stfu and leave this thread alone.
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Old 08-04-2010, 08:07 PM   #159
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Come on guys, lets not derail this thread.... its been going so well...

I feel 'fds' is being helpful but I wouldnt mind more detail...
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Old 08-04-2010, 09:47 PM   #160
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

My Bad.

Clearly, Alvin wrote this to help people who aren't winning at poker currently, and are learning the game. it's solid advice for those people. Is it the end all be all advice for poker? Of course not. Is it helpful to SSNL players who are trying to learn and win money? Yes.

These are just general guidelines and theories. Even beginning players know there are no absolutes in poker. It's pretty obvious even early on in one's study. How people read the OP and still think he is giving absolutes in beyond me. Apparently a good many people have a hard time distinguishing the difference between theory and absolutes.

Secondly, this was posted in Small Stakes NL forum. There are A LOT of people here who are at all stages of study. It would be one thing if he posted it in HSNL, and fds posted his response there, but even then....

And furthermore, when someone is posting general theories, it's very easy to find something wrong with it. There hasn't been one famous philosopher in the history of mankind that hasn't been debunked or refuted in some way, but that shouldn't take anything away from their work. Philosophy is just that, philosophy. It's not a science based in fact, it's based in theory.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:16 AM   #161
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

fds probably doesn't have anything to gain from posting in this thread so i think that everyone should just be happy that he posted anything at all
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:48 PM   #162
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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I read the OP and only the OP and it's very meh to me. Couple good points in there about tilt control with laggy play and laggy players often not being very good and don't have the edge they think they do (but poker is built on delusion, so this is nothing new).

But really everything else seems pretty terrible. Learn how to play well at poker. The better you are relative to your opponents, the more likely you are to develop into a laggier player. And when I say "learn to play well," I mean really well. Not just the standard crap; experiment and, even though I hate this phrase, think outside the box. Developing instinctual reads takes time, but autopiloting a nitty style prevents one from developing that pivotal skill. Poker is about situations, and OP seems to be completely ignoring that. I mean, I respect what you're saying about the majority of durrr wannabes not being profitable, but simply saying that playing nitty/tight is the solution to that is just stupid imo because there are just as many nitty players that are losing as well.

And yeah, OP, you're never going to beat any games past 2/4, but it appears that you have no desire to do so. I also would probably want to shoot myself if I did this day in and day out.

Basically, one should learn to play good in their own style, learn about your own tilt issues and other x-factors. There is no universal answer such as OP's just play 18/14 for 50 hours a week and laugh at the lags.

To note, I play 3/6 to 25/50 with some smaller stakes thrown in (and occasional bigger if there's a fish), and basically I have to be more in line in those games. When I play small stakes, I play like a maniac and most players have no clue how to properly counteract besides call and pray or spazz shove in weird spots. My guess, OP, is that you're the former, and you simply don't realize how exploitable you are. But that's ok because, hey, you're grinding out that nl100 with no ambition to do anything else.

edit: and what is "big hand big pot." It's all relative to your oppenents range. Third pair for stacks is the right play depending on the situation. Folding the second nuts is the right play in another situation. If the "big hand big pot" rule work, PTR would show a lot more winners, lol. It seems like you have a lot of universal rules, nearly all of which seem bad to me. In fact, I hate the idea of having rules, period. And they are probably what prevents you from being a larger winner and moving up to beat bigger games.

I realize this sounds harsh, and it's not all intended to be personal (I have no clue who you are), but it just seems bad to me.
pretty much this.

also it makes me kinda happy when i see so many ppl actually like OPs.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:51 PM   #163
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

I think a lot of the people who don't like OP are probably some of the people it is most directed at.

Its funny I agree with both sides of the argument. Some people need to be more solid because they aren't good enough yet to be laggy and spewy and are constantly making mistakes for stacks.

On the other hand if you plan long term to improve, move up, bust rolls you are going to need to stop limiting yourself.
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Old 08-05-2010, 01:31 PM   #164
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by Ra_Z_Boy View Post
I think a lot of the people who don't like OP are probably some of the people it is most directed at.
i also think most of those ppl are better at poker than the ones who like OPs.
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:32 PM   #165
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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At least half a million hands between Verneer and I proves that solid play not only wins, but it wins at a steady clip.
you guys have only played 500,000 hands combined?
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:41 PM   #166
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

im reminded of something i heard jack nicklaus say a while ago. he advocated that young golfers just grip it and rip it. learn to hit the ball hard and then worry about accuracy later.

i feel like there is a corollary to poker. if you want to become one of the best, its probably better to start off laggy, and learn to bluff and read hands, and push people around. you'll probably lose for a while, maybe even a long while, as you learn. but once things start to click, its a small order to tighten up slightly and play some really tough poker.

this is the route most of the very good players i know have taken. off the top of my head i can only think of 1 really nitty player who loosened up to a point where he could crush everyone. (and sadly it isnt me)
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:53 PM   #167
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

i think you have that backwards, even if you use your saying, hitting hard = TAG. learning "ABC" plays are easier when your equity edge is overall higher against mostly fish opponents and others who won't exploit you.

i guess for midstakes+ that makes sense, but midstakes+ players are already some of the very best players compared to everyone who plays poker, and a young golfer sounds like a beginner
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:07 PM   #168
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

lol at the dick waving in this thread. it never fails. op makes a solid post that is directed towards marginal winners, rakeback grinders, and losers and the midstakes guys come in and poke holes in it. duh. you feel better now?

walk before you can run, right?
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:11 PM   #169
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by Dying Actors View Post
im reminded of something i heard jack nicklaus say a while ago. he advocated that young golfers just grip it and rip it. learn to hit the ball hard and then worry about accuracy later.
Pretty terrible analogy. Fundamentals of poker: basic abc tag play. Fundamentals of golf: stance/grip and swing structure, not how hard or accurately you hit the ball.
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:24 PM   #170
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

lol, fine. my mistake at an analogy attempt.
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:34 PM   #171
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

very good read
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:22 PM   #172
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Some good posts by fds and _JerryD_
Appreciated
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Old 08-05-2010, 07:27 PM   #173
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by bubaloo View Post
semi-grunch...

I think to make a looser style more profitable, you have to make correct decisions an exponentially higher % of the time the looser you play, as to compensate for the increasingly weaker range that goes with it.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra_Z_Boy View Post
Grunching:

The greater your skill edge, the more hands you can get away with playing profitably. The reason many lags are breakeven is they don't have the skill edge to get away with playing a weaker range, but they do it because thats what the cool kids like Durrr are doing.

...
Did you compare grunch notes?!

This is the relationship between VPIP and Win at SD: as the former increases, so the latter should decrease. When you are skilled, you can balance these figures and widen your preflop range, and win just as much when you are playing in more pots. When you get super-skilled, you are profitable in even more situations and don't even lose that much in the balance. But if you step over the edge / do not have the skillz, you can lose balance...spectacularly.
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Old 08-05-2010, 07:50 PM   #174
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

I find this thread fascinating. That is all.
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Old 08-11-2010, 06:44 AM   #175
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

I definitely think I'm winning more playing solid, I'm up 9 BIs over 11K hands so far
but then again people might still think I'm a spewtard because I get a lot of action still
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