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Old 07-28-2010, 01:57 PM   #76
jaykay25
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

If you were a superuser, how high would your vpip be?

Skills make u like a superuser.
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:35 PM   #77
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

hmmm very interesting thread.

a solid player for me plays, well... solid POST flop. not too passive, not too aggressive. doesn't get out of line too much and makes most of his/her money by exploiting the fish and other player's mistakes. IMO it doesn't matter so much whether you are TAG or LAG pre flop, what matters is how you play post flop.

with that said, i think it's fair to say that solid ABC poker is going to be optimal and provide the highest winrate at 200NL and below, simply due to the amount of fishy players and bad regs. not to mention with so many tables on sites like stars and tilt you can table select very effectively. there's no need to get tricky or too aggressive post flop as a lot of players will make mistakes that you can profit from.

HOWEVER, what happens when you move up to midstakes (400NL+)?? obviously the number of fish and bad players drops significantly. you will find yourself playing more and more with the same regs (especially on smaller sites like ipoker and ongame). these regs will probably be good enough to realise that you play solid post flop, and they will be able to exploit it with sheer aggression and 'spazzy' plays to move you off your hands. i mean flopping sets, the nuts etc isn't easy you know!

post flop aggression is the key.

the imfromsweden thread in 'poker goals and challenges' section of the forum gives you a great insight into what i'm saying. look at how light he gets called down because players know that he is capable of some 'spazzy' plays.

these regs that you play with need to know that you can triple barrel with air, or check raise all in on the river with air. they need to know you have these kind of plays in your arsenal, so that you get called down light and paid off in future situations. if you're just triple barrelling with the nuts everytime, then surely players will catch onto that after time and play appropriately.

ofcourse i'm not saying that you should suddenly play like a monkey once you reach 2/4 and higher, but you need to show other players what you're capable of. this is where the skill comes in. you have to be clever with these aggressive 'spazzy' plays and pick your spots carefully. most importantly, you have to represent some sort of legitimate hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
On Being Solid.

[I]
As I became more experienced I opened up my game to 26/22, mostly to play more pots with the fish, though as I moved up to 2/4 and flirted with 3/6, I was having a harder and harder time maintaining a winning clip with a looser style. Those games are full of knowledgeable, aggressive players, but if you dig deeply, you'll find that most of them are breakeven or very small winners. Why? Because these players are too spazzy, too suspicious. They're always worried someone's making a move on them, and put money in way too lightly. In fear of getting outplayed, they lose sight of “Big pot, big hand.”
CW i agree with a lot of what you say, but this paragraph does raise some questions... you say here that as you moved up you became a looser player, but i mean just because you played looser pre flop doesn't mean that your style changed with regards to post flop play, or did it? also you say that a lot of these players were break even/marginal players. but shouldn't you take into account that there are less fish and much better players at these stakes and beyond? hence the smaller winrates. also im sure if these players are calling down/going all in light versus eachother, then they probably have good reason to, due to past history.


cliffs: IMO solid ABC play is fine for 200NL and below, but very exploitable once you reach midstakes (400NL+).
 
Old 07-28-2010, 02:47 PM   #78
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

semi-grunch...

imo i dont think it matters if you play lag or tag, i think its about playing whatever style maximizes your ev in respect to where you think your edge lies, obv taking into account #tables/tiltissues etcetc.

Quote:
Of course, big winners are rare regardless of style, but I'd posit that players with 27 VPIP or higher are much less often 3ptbb/100 winners than their 22 VPIP counterparts.
I think this is because playing loose is considered "cool" so people do it w/o considering what and where their actual maximum edge is. If everyone knew and played their optimal vpip, then id say that 27%vpip players would on average have higher winrates.

I think to make a looser style more profitable, you have to make correct decisions an exponentially higher % of the time the looser you play, as to compensate for the increasingly weaker range that goes with it.

By this logic there will obv be some sort of vpip% equilibrium where even making 100% correct decisions after the start of the hand will become suboptimal as the range becomes so weak that not even perfect decisions can make the hand profitable.

Therefore the correct vpip% to strive for is one as close to that equilibrium as possible while having an honest grasp of your own ability to make correct decisions. (eg if you know you cant play a marginal spot like flatting 97s oop profitably, then avoid it1)

Basically about taking everything into account and finding your own maximum expectation.

1.like i said at the beginning, this would be taking into account a lot of things, espc #of tables, as im sure a lot of people fold 97s oop when they could play it profitably, but doesnt suit their overall hourly in the grand scheme of things. /disclaimer
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Old 07-28-2010, 03:10 PM   #79
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

sick, first time i've seen a footnote in a 2p2 post... boundaries are being broken ladies and gentlemen
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Old 07-28-2010, 04:40 PM   #80
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Very good read, ty OP
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:23 PM   #81
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by steel108 View Post
A reg opens 60% of buttons and 4B 8% of his range versus 3B, we know he calls AQ, 99, TT. We 3B 77 in the SB versus his open with the intention of shipping versus a 4B. Is this solid? By your criteria it's not. But not doing so is just lighting money on fire.
I don't think my definition implicitly excludes your example,

"When the pot's 50bb's or more, you should usually have a hand that compares very favorably against your opponent's." Which I think qualifies here.

Also, I never say "Don't get in 99 pre-flop," I say "If you're getting in AQ or 99 pre-flop standardly in late position..." STANDARD is the keyword.

Also, there are a few problems with this assumption:

1) It assumes that my opponent's range is static, which of course it is not. While given a certain dynamic this is fine, but that's only for the duration of the dynamic, as it's is EXTREMELY easy to exploit. Again, if AQ is going in "standardly," you're going to get completely boned by a simple gear change.

As an Edward myself, I've made incredible amounts of money by getting in KK against 99 and my opponent thinking "oh what a cooler," when I simply nitted up against an aggro 3-bettor.

2) If you're 3-betting 77 and comparable hands intending to always get them in, you often have a gutted flat-calling range, which is creates extremely exploitable post-flop ranges.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:24 PM   #82
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubaloo View Post

I think to make a looser style more profitable, you have to make correct decisions an exponentially higher % of the time the looser you play, as to compensate for the increasingly weaker range that goes with it.

By this logic there will obv be some sort of vpip% equilibrium where even making 100% correct decisions after the start of the hand will become suboptimal as the range becomes so weak that not even perfect decisions can make the hand profitable.

Therefore the correct vpip% to strive for is one as close to that equilibrium as possible while having an honest grasp of your own ability to make correct decisions. (eg if you know you cant play a marginal spot like flatting 97s oop profitably, then avoid it1)
Wow, this was arguably the best post in this thread.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:34 PM   #83
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by Oggy_Oggy_88 View Post
CW i agree with a lot of what you say, but this paragraph does raise some questions... you say here that as you moved up you became a looser player, but i mean just because you played looser pre flop doesn't mean that your style changed with regards to post flop play, or did it? also you say that a lot of these players were break even/marginal players. but shouldn't you take into account that there are less fish and much better players at these stakes and beyond? hence the smaller winrates. also im sure if these players are calling down/going all in light versus eachother, then they probably have good reason to, due to past history.


cliffs: IMO solid ABC play is fine for 200NL and below, but very exploitable once you reach midstakes (400NL+).
Yeah, I guess this wasn't really clear. I became looser more because my post-flop skill was getting better, I was working with stronger players, etc., and not so much a function of my moving up.

I feel like a lot of these players just made plays without history more out of insane fear of being outplayed moreso than making educated reads. A great example of this is CaptainTable (a very good HSNL player) playing against Browerkid (a very good SSNL player) at 2/4 in a Cardrunner's video. He just puts in a lot of money without any real reason. If you ever see my 2/4 videos on CR, I get regulars calling with A3s OOP and then calling off on QJT OOP with no read. Obviously that might be video-related spazzing, but still. Terribad.
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Old 07-28-2010, 05:35 PM   #84
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Wow, this was arguably the best post in this thread.
Yeah I agree it's essentially what I tried to say when I said
Quote:
I think I'd do better often if I'd stick to his guidelines simply because I overestimate the quality of my reads etc.
The looser you play the better your decision making needs to be imo
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Old 07-28-2010, 07:57 PM   #85
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Finally the discussion is being geared away from a specific "Edward" or "Jacob" based style and mored towards a situational game. Playing situational poker is, by any definition, solid.

OP spoke about laying down KK against super aggression from nits, while calling heavy action with weaker holdings against maniacs. This is adaptation.

If you're sitting at a table with 5 of those nits and you're playing 20/17, you're a fool and far from solid. You should profitably play that table at 40/37 and have a graph that is red-line dominated. Very few, if any, pots that you play should be above 20 bb's and you're almost never going to see a showdown. If you're not attempting to steal > 70% against these players, you have an easy leak to fix!

Conversely, you sit down at a table full of 40/37s, solid will be that 20/17 style, perhaps tighter. You can even argue that a 40/10 style will yield higher profits depending on their post flop tendencies. Just fitting into your ABC world wins you a great deal here.

Defining yourself in any style is the antithesis of solid, and I believe that's the argument clowntable is putting forward.

Great post OP to inspire this discussion.
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:28 PM   #86
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

I think another point is, mass-multitabling favours a tighter style. Because there are less fish and more regs these days, people are playing more and more tables, and it's easier to add tables if you have don't have a high VPIP style which gives you a lot of marginal decisions.
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Old 07-28-2010, 08:45 PM   #87
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorvacofin View Post
I think another point is, mass-multitabling favours a tighter style.
But that further reinforces the point that doing this is usually going to cap your progression at that point. Pretty much accepted wisdom your game is going to develop way less playing 8/12 tables than 4. And you'll reach a point where you're game is just not developing enough MMT to sufficiently beat the level above if you try and step up.

If you've hit your level and are happy 12-tabling it for great profits, that's great. It might be the most money-sound decision. But it can hardly be considered an apotheosis.

I think you're saying something among my earlier lines JR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkSandwich View Post
[the creative player] should be playing a "solid" game versus fish and a more creative one against regs.
What I mean by this is a lot of regs seem to have an attitude of "he's a winning reg, I'll stay out of his way" and not "he's another player with leaks, how do I exploit them?".

I mean I think the argument "should we be the solid player?" just isn't enough. We should be. And that is a massive battle in itself.
But why stop there? And for that matter why do we need to attain the ultimate mastery of solid before we add in other moves we see as +EV?

Why can't we make moves 4-tabling a 12-tabling money making machine doesn't have the conditions to make?
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:16 PM   #88
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SharkSandwich View Post
But that further reinforces the point that doing this is usually going to cap your progression at that point. Pretty much accepted wisdom your game is going to develop way less playing 8/12 tables than 4. And you'll reach a point where you're game is just not developing enough MMT to sufficiently beat the level above if you try and step up.

If you've hit your level and are happy 12-tabling it for great profits, that's great. It might be the most money-sound decision. But it can hardly be considered an apotheosis.
Good point. I guess the dilemma is it's so much harder nowadays to 4-table and build a roll for the next level, assuming you rely on poker for part or all of your income. 4-tabling and learning to exploit regs will give you the skills to move up, but not necessarily the bankroll, and it must be really hard for a pro grinder to stomach the loss in short-term income and escape the 'play a million tables, bumhunt fish and never move up' cycle.
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:19 PM   #89
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
i'd like to point out that I've got half of SSNL talking in terms of edwards and jacobs.

i don't care where this thread goes. i've ****ing won.
god

i just got that

wp sir
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:18 AM   #90
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by Insistent_ View Post
Agree with previous post. ESPECIALLY if you are winning at 3/6 and IF you are willing to learn how to play IMAGINATIVE, 5/10 or 10/20 is not at all a bad dream and goal. Of course, if they stick to nit-poker they will never make it.

I actually think playing SSNL poker without the intent of getting good enough to play higher stakes is sort of a waste of time. Games will get tougher and tougher and the nits winrate decrease and decrease. Its setting yourself up for failure. I mean, just get urself a university degree and do something better with your time.

Try to become great, and if that doesnt work, stop playing.
At least thats how I see it
no, of course it's not bad to aspire to be a 5/10 reg

spewing all over the place at 1/2 because "playing ABC won't work at 5/10", however, is, indeed, bad
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:22 AM   #91
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by Insistent_ View Post
Problem is the nits will prolly have to move down from say 1/2 to 0.25/0.5 in a few years because of better opposition. The good LAGs will (well, some of them) have the possibility to adapt to new circumstances and some of them may be able to stay at the same level, and some may even progress.

Good LAG >>>> ultra-nit >>>>> Bad LAG
again, this is just ridiculous....please illuminate the reasons why "nits" cannot adjust?

In my experience lags are actually much, much, much worse at adjusting to different game conditions than "standard" tags
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Old 07-29-2010, 02:22 AM   #92
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

God I like you'r CR videos, your funny
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:16 AM   #93
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilbo-san View Post
again, this is just ridiculous....please illuminate the reasons why "nits" cannot adjust?

In my experience lags are actually much, much, much worse at adjusting to different game conditions than "standard" tags
I guess I was being a bit too provocative, sry.
I think ur right that in practice spew monkeys often cannot change.
What I meant is , in THEORY, A LAG is used to
a) marginal situations
b) non-marginal situations

A nit is used to
b) non-marginal situations

hence, a LAG should in theory be more well-versed.

Anwy, this whole thread is using too much simplification (and maybe I am aswell) and I dont think its so fruitful as you'd first think, b/c of that reason.
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Old 07-29-2010, 10:06 AM   #94
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jr4284 View Post
Finally the discussion is being geared away from a specific "Edward" or "Jacob" based style and mored towards a situational game. Playing situational poker is, by any definition, solid.

OP spoke about laying down KK against super aggression from nits, while calling heavy action with weaker holdings against maniacs. This is adaptation.

If you're sitting at a table with 5 of those nits and you're playing 20/17, you're a fool and far from solid. You should profitably play that table at 40/37 and have a graph that is red-line dominated. Very few, if any, pots that you play should be above 20 bb's and you're almost never going to see a showdown. If you're not attempting to steal > 70% against these players, you have an easy leak to fix!

Conversely, you sit down at a table full of 40/37s, solid will be that 20/17 style, perhaps tighter. You can even argue that a 40/10 style will yield higher profits depending on their post flop tendencies. Just fitting into your ABC world wins you a great deal here.

Defining yourself in any style is the antithesis of solid, and I believe that's the argument clowntable is putting forward.

Great post OP to inspire this discussion.
This post covers it pretty well. Defining people as "solid", "loose" whatever is misunderstanding the basic principle, cash poker is 100% exploitative, period. There is only good and bad. Having a "style" of play that you stick to regardless of table conditions or villains tendencies is inherently bad, it must be.

The caveat to this is covered well here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bubaloo View Post
semi-grunch...

imo i dont think it matters if you play lag or tag, i think its about playing whatever style maximizes your ev in respect to where you think your edge lies, obv taking into account #tables/tiltissues etcetc.



I think this is because playing loose is considered "cool" so people do it w/o considering what and where their actual maximum edge is. If everyone knew and played their optimal vpip, then id say that 27%vpip players would on average have higher winrates.

I think to make a looser style more profitable, you have to make correct decisions an exponentially higher % of the time the looser you play, as to compensate for the increasingly weaker range that goes with it.

By this logic there will obv be some sort of vpip% equilibrium where even making 100% correct decisions after the start of the hand will become suboptimal as the range becomes so weak that not even perfect decisions can make the hand profitable.

Therefore the correct vpip% to strive for is one as close to that equilibrium as possible while having an honest grasp of your own ability to make correct decisions. (eg if you know you cant play a marginal spot like flatting 97s oop profitably, then avoid it1)

Basically about taking everything into account and finding your own maximum expectation.

1.like i said at the beginning, this would be taking into account a lot of things, espc #of tables, as im sure a lot of people fold 97s oop when they could play it profitably, but doesnt suit their overall hourly in the grand scheme of things. /disclaimer
Simply, the better you are, the more hands you can play profitably. The aim is always to maximise +EV. If your playing correctly, your VPIP/PFR should vary hugely from table to table sometimes. If you can profitably play a hand in any given spot (a la the 97s OOP above), then it is a mistake not to do so, no matter how difficult the situation might become. OP mentioned spots where you are pushing a 3/4% edge in preflop pushing wars, and whether or not to take them. As always, it depends. Against OP, or any other good reg, we take them all day. Against the fish, we are never jamming low +EV spots, because why take a 4% edge when we can get a much larger edge playing through the streets?
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Old 07-29-2010, 04:57 PM   #95
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by FancyBazil View Post
OP mentioned spots where you are pushing a 3/4% edge in preflop pushing wars, and whether or not to take them. As always, it depends. Against OP, or any other good reg, we take them all day. Against the fish, we are never jamming low +EV spots, because why take a 4% edge when we can get a much larger edge playing through the streets?
Why do we only get that edge against fish? Seems like slowplaying pre-flop is the nuts against a lot of spazzier players.

Doesn't anyone believe in playing pots, especially in position, with disguised or unusually strong ranges?
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:22 PM   #96
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

My point is, we try and take the best edge possible. Against a good TAG reg, 4% is really pretty good, they are unlikely to make any big mistakes, so we're happier to take that guarenteed edge. If the guy is spazzier, we still have a decision about how he spews worst. If he folds to 3-bets 80% of the time, but fires 3 barrels 75%, then of course we flat him and let him spew. If he never folds to a 3-bet, and 4 bet jams lite all the time, then we 3-bet him, even if his barrel stats are really high, as this is our best available edge.

Our best possible action, given the known variables (our hand, position, stack etc), is always a function of villains likely response. It's not really a case of believing in anything, every play / hand plan should be considered and judged on it's individual merits, with the only goal being to maximise EV.
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:52 PM   #97
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

very solid post. ty OP.
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Old 07-29-2010, 06:43 PM   #98
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by FancyBazil View Post
My point is, we try and take the best edge possible. Against a good TAG reg, 4% is really pretty good, they are unlikely to make any big mistakes, so we're happier to take that guarenteed edge. If the guy is spazzier, we still have a decision about how he spews worst. If he folds to 3-bets 80% of the time, but fires 3 barrels 75%, then of course we flat him and let him spew. If he never folds to a 3-bet, and 4 bet jams lite all the time, then we 3-bet him, even if his barrel stats are really high, as this is our best available edge.
Speaking generally, players are more likely to make mistakes postflop than preflop. Part of that is because people at SSNL are transparent with their hand ranges after the flop, and against an opponent willing to exploit them they're going to get owned, frequently. The other part is that making mistakes postflop is almost always a big mistake equity wise, and it also tends to be more expensive.

Calling preflop with AQ on the button to a TAG's raise in MP is just as much of a guaranteed edge as 3betting. Quantifying how much is difficult, but in my experience against a lot of players it's the best play. Making non-sensical flop raises on Q72 is sure to arouse plenty of suspicion from a thinking opponent, and to combat this they'll often just 3bet the flop with nothing assuming your range consists of only bluffs, or with any Qx hand they'll talk themselves into losing a lot of money. Both results are excellent for us, and even when they do fold they'll be looking to spew against us later on in the session. Of course the alternate line of simply calling the flop with AQ has a lot of merit too as it reps a weak range and allows him to bluff / value bet worse hands. 3-betting AQ preflop also folds out a lot of the hands we dominate.

Obviously 3betting AQ on the button is fine and relatively standard, especially when you know they are willing to call with hands you dominate, but there are a lot of situations when it's likely the most +EV line to call and underrepresent your hand. His calling range to a 3bet is the biggest factor. Some players have no problem calling 89s or 33 to a 3bet OOP with 100bbs. Against those players 3betting is almost mandatory since they have a weak, exploitable range that they're playing out of position.


Quote:
Our best possible action, given the known variables (our hand, position, stack etc), is always a function of villains likely response. It's not really a case of believing in anything, every play / hand plan should be considered and judged on it's individual merits, with the only goal being to maximise EV.
I think CW was mostly just commenting on the statement that you 3bet AQ "all day" against regs for some kind of guaranteed edge. There's nothing wrong with it, but as you said, you have to judge plays by their own individual merit. Therefore you should see that there are a lot of situations where 3betting is absolutely worse than calling with a hand like AQ preflop, specifically if the original raiser isn't prone to defending his 3bets loosely or if the players behind you have a propensity to squeeze.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:12 PM   #99
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by aislephive View Post

I think CW was mostly just commenting on the statement that you 3bet AQ "all day" against regs for some kind of guaranteed edge. There's nothing wrong with it, but as you said, you have to judge plays by their own individual merit. Therefore you should see that there are a lot of situations where 3betting is absolutely worse than calling with a hand like AQ preflop, specifically if the original raiser isn't prone to defending his 3bets loosely or if the players behind you have a propensity to squeeze.
Crossed wires here slightly, the OP (below) was what I was discussing. Flatting AQ IP or OOP can often be far better than 3-betting, I agree. My point is we only turn down that 3/4% edge from getting it in if a greater edge is available playing it differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
On Being Solid.

3. Don't try to simplify poker into a pre-flop battle, trying to push tiny 3-4% edges. If you're getting in AQ or 99 pre-flop standardly in late position, you're not necessarily doing something wrong, but you're exposing yourself to significant trouble against perceptive or tricky opponents.
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Old 07-29-2010, 09:24 PM   #100
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Re: On Being Solid (very long)

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Originally Posted by citizenwind View Post
On Being Solid.

Solid plays wins the money. If anyone tells you anything else, they're deluding themselves. When someone says "Oh ABC poker doesn't win," they're wrong. At least half a million hands between Verneer and I proves that solid play not only wins, but it wins at a steady clip. Don't believe it beats MSNL and higher? Go search up Nanonoko, or TcBlade.
Please, look Nanonoko up. Look at his NL200 video and see what he likes to do. One of his favorite hands are J5 and he likes to 4bet/5bet bluff all in pre-flop with it. Don't believe me?

http://strategy.pokernews.com/strate...d=102881787001

Fast forward to around 32:30 for crazy hero call, and choose the other video down in the corner and fast forward to around 12:40 to see J6 all in bluff shove!

Nanonoko does NOT win all that money just because of "solid nit fold when i have best hand" play.

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