This is some "solid" math.

citizen, I just watched one of you and nute's vids a few days ago and I had a watershed moment when nute destroyed amuro's play vs that fish c/calling that turn with middle pair.

It might have been a bit results oriented, but that hand demonstrated a real important principle that i never really thought to care much about.

thanks for that.

So OP is a bumhunter nit, just as most of SSNL players are. He would also get raped in a HU match or on a table full of regulars and will probably never play anything above NL400.

Since he is avoiding tough spots, his handreading will never improve.

The worst thing about poker is that those player types usually run well, which is why they think they are so good.

everyone would
it's not HU where rake is capped to $0.50, with $3 rake EVERYONE on that table would be a loser unless there are some really bad nits that you count as "regs"

Uh....NO.

Great post Alvin. I think what I really love about this post, is that there is so much value in it, and yet many good 2+2ers are still in denial of it. Even though you wrote it with the intention of helping and starting a good discussion among poker players.

This makes me feel positive about the future of poker. People choose to believe what they WANT to believe and rationalize everything in accordance of that.

I think a great discussion has arose out of your OP, cheers to you for that.

you do realize these are the free videos and the play is what it is for a reason?

Haha thanks guys. Hopefully this helped some people out, even if other people disagreed in parts. As I said in the OP, i was trying to define solid play, and of course that's impossible to completely encompass in one go, especially considering I barely proofread anything. I guess I'm doing SOMETHING right, considering the flaming PMs I got.

over my huge sample of 2K hands I won 6BIs trying to play solid! Would have been 7, but I forgot I was trying to play solid at the beginning of the second session and reverted to lolspewbluffing

will update progress as I get more hands in

I don't really like what I read in this thread. A good solid player reads hands and uses small edges to his advantage,and isn't an uncreative abc player.

what do you mean precisely.. are you saying he isn't going to do as much awesome sh*t?

lots of people play according to what they like, rather than according to what's +EV

the other day a friend sent me a hand on aim where a reg flatted his 4bet in position with J9. The friend bet like 1/3 pot on A73 and the reg shipped into his AK.

I picked this example because of a couple things. Clearly, flatting preflop is +EV with this hand but since that isn't sexy, the reg 3-bet instead. Then he gets 4-bet small, but it's no fun to fold, so he flats.

Then he gets 4:1 on calling with a flush draw, which is clearly +EV, but hey, the green line isn't as cool as the red line, so he shoves instead when the shove has almost no FE and therefore isn't +EV.

It's a classic example of someone choosing to do what's "cool" on every street rather than what has the highest EV

I don't care at all wihat's cool, I couldn't care less.
I play at a network where most of the regs are uncreative nits, and I have a clear edge on them (was more true in nl100, but in nl200 now too).

Not because I flat J9 to 4-bets, but because I think about ranges and hands and use good bluffing/floating/barreling spots to my advantage.

You said something crazy scandi stuff somewhere, well I'm like 22/18 with 6.2% 3bet so I have nothing to do with any crazy LAG stuff. However I do like to think about my lines and not just instafold marginal hands.

Nanonoko does NOT play 'ABC'. Actually he said in a recent interview he get's into a lot of "preflop wars" and plays a very swingy style.

that sounds like the definition of "solid" to me, OP never said playing like an uncreative nit is how to bring home the bacon

(As to the "crazy scandi" stuff I said in cheese, I just meant that villain looked at your location and made assumptions)

@AT

I don't care about being solid or loose or whatever. Just concentrate on making good decisions. I have sessions with 10%+ 3bet and sessions with 4%, session with 25PFR and some with 16PFR... I just play what I think is best approach in the given situation. Generally, I do think it is good to develope parts of the game that are advanced once you've mastered a solid abc-style.
I'm also no fan of playing more than 4 tables.

I don't think the 'green line' style is better or worse than the 'red-line style'. Ultimately it all breaks down to understanding ranges and predicting what your opponent is gonna to with certain parts of his ranges. Focus on that.

Ok, fair enough - we can agree that creativity is what it takes, maybe I didn't read the OP carefully enough - I just had the assumption that he meant to avoid marginal decisions/bluffs or something and just to valuebet own strong hands - and usually as the original raiser.

Because that kind of narrow minded ABC isn't taking you far imho.

And for the scandi stuff, alrighty. It's just that it's quite a frequent generalization back there in US and you hear it so often, and we do come in many shapes and sizes too but I guess there's a certain tendency to aggression here, no idea where it comes from - compared to anglo-saxon players who are more passive (UK&US). And I mean like fish - usually scandi fish are aggro where as others passive

Good thread.

I don't think the important idea in the OP is "be a nit it's solid". It's that being a Jacob lag just because it's fun and you "own" people sometimes but also end up barely profiting or losing isn't good just to do it.

This post wasn't meant for the super lag that destroys everyone and has a sick winrate. It's for the guy with the lag style that people don't like to play against, but also doesn't make much or any money with it.

I don't say anywhere "don't bluff" or "just valuebet." What are ya'll reading? :P

I doubt more than a few people read the entire OP, they just skimmed and saw "18/15" and a few other nit-worthy phrases...

nice post op, worthy of being posted in msnl imo.

i think what makes this post difficult to understand for some people is there really is no clear thesis, and the definitions are convoluted to some. it's okay though because i would find it hard to put into words the idea you're trying to lay out as well. especially without some clearcut examples to put it into context.

the idea of passing up on marginal spots is an interesting one. i think most people are approaching this with a chicken before the egg complex. the reason people should be aggressive (in a broad sense) is not because other players are showing a profit with it, but because they do themselves. a LAG shouldn't become a LAG because its; interesting, helps them learn quicker, gives them a higher potential earn etc... a LAG becomes a LAG because he starts out tight, and notices his edge in pots becomes greater, therefore he progressively wants to be in more pots and more pots. too many people are trying to become a 27/24 because that's what the most sensationalized players play like. i actually have people ask me, " should I 3bet 10% because that's what nanonoko 3bets?". obviously there's an equilibrium but it isn't being approached in an intelligent matter.

too many people are going from 0-60 on the aggression speedometer, hence "chicken before the egg". also this equilibrium will be met at different points for different players. i think the idea you're laying across is that for the majority this equilibrium will be met closer to our beginnings/roots than most people assume on 2+2.

i think you need to build more on the specific idea of passing up on marginal early street decisions in order to avoid spots where potential miscalculations in strategy will be magnified on further streets. this is a subject a lot of midstakes players like myself already instinctively understand but don't really know how to verbalize. i also think a core ideal in your post is the idea of consistency, for a creative players biggest detriment is that he can overextend himself.

only thing i disagree with in this thread is the notion that 5/10 is significantly different than midstakes. imo i believe a solid winning 400nl player shouldn't have much difficulty beating 5/10 as long as he is comfortable with the money hes wagering. from my experience midstakes actually tends to be more aggressive preflop than 5/10. i would also say on a whole the games are less aggressive in a frequency sense. meaning people aren't being aggressive 9/10 times, but instead the 6/10 times they are it's very concentrated and well thought out aggression. 25/50+ would obviously be a different beast, and I can't really comment on those games as I haven't put any significant volume in there.

disagreeeeeeeeeeeeee..............!!

p.s can i flat this river?



Prima Network $200.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

SB: $208.35
BB: $170.30
UTG: $250.07
Hero (MP): $200.00
CO: $210.10
BTN: $188.45

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is MP with A A
1 fold, Hero raises to $6, CO calls $6, BTN calls $6, SB calls $5, 1 fold

Flop: ($26.00) T 3 4 (4 players)
SB bets $17.00, Hero calls $17, CO calls $17, BTN calls $17

Turn: ($94.00) 3 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, BTN checks

River: ($94.00) A (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets $94.00, BTN folds, SB folds, Hero raises to $177, CO calls $83

this is absolutely fantastic.

That was a very good post darkconcept.

I guess that's exactly where I'm at and was meaning in my criticism, I'm no super LAG nowadays either, but I have been through the 18/16 ABC poker with value hands. I have played SSNL/MSNL since the beginning of 2007, and to me some of the things citizenwind was referring in the original post (don't get me wrong, it's a nice post) are sort of like I would be forced to go back in the learning curve.

And I don't want to lose those edges I have now because of better hand reading that I used to have, and better understanding of what my image + my range looks like to the other players.

+1, very well written

i wouldnt fold aces full on AKKK2. If has 33 you kinda have to pay him off lol. kind of an odd check. seems like everyone loves to slowplay the absolute nuts lol