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01-14-2009 , 08:42 AM
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $140.20
CO: $99.50
Hero (BTN): $146.10
SB: $15.05
BB: $72.20

Pre-Flop: A K dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG folds, CO raises to $4, Hero raises to $13.50, 2 folds, CO calls $9.50

Flop: ($28.50) Q 3 8 (2 Players)
CO checks, Hero bets $20, CO calls $20

Turn: ($68.50) 3 (2 Players)
CO checks,Hero?


Villain in this hand is tag,24/20/3 over large datamined sample
His fold to 3bet is 50% and his fold to cbet in 3bet pots is 50%
Is this a good spot to shove turn vs his range for calling flop?
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01-14-2009 , 09:12 AM
I dont think the 3 of club is the good card to shove
01-14-2009 , 09:50 AM
what r ur stats
01-14-2009 , 10:04 AM
I'd fire here 3/4 a lot but I'm think I can be too aggro in these spots - and my image is prob wrong to be doing it. Think shove looks bad. He has middle pp's a lot here (think sets raise flop), maybe flush draw, obv Q in his range and it depends if you think he'll have discipline to fold here - depends on your image.

I see quite a few regs checking here with AQ for pot control or perhaps to induce bluff at the end. Your in position so checking behind can be an option - I'd guess quite a few 2+2 regs would check behind and fold river to a bet.
01-14-2009 , 10:09 AM
Well, it's not a "good" double barrel card, but sometimes you have spots that are profitable to double even on bad cards. This COULD be a good spot if you have a tight image. Generally though I think there is too much paranoia with the CO/BTN dynamic to expect villain to be folding middle pairs/8x often enough here (trying to fold out Qx here is just about always really spewy).
01-14-2009 , 10:14 AM
depends on how spewy you've been playing (image). if you're stuck i don't think villian folds turn with TT/JJ so you may have to fire a river barrel bluff. have you been barrelling and has he been calling down? or even if he's been folding alot this may be a hand he makes a stand.

more info./read please.
01-14-2009 , 10:19 AM
Agree with above mostly. It's one of the worst barreling cards in the deck. Not only does it whiff your range, but it low paired boards trigger the "stack off with any pair" reflex.

You'd need to have a really damn tight image, some history, or know that villain calls way too many cbets with very little equity but folds to further aggression to make this profitable.

Also, you're in position, so you can't even throw in the 'oh he may be floating' factor
01-14-2009 , 10:20 AM
A low non-flush completing card pairing the board is pretty bad for barrelling in this spot.

I'm no expert on double barrelling but imo you need a specific read to double barrel on non-scare cards (e.g. tendency to float, or fold underpairs to a non scare card double barrel).

Last edited by All_In_Olly; 01-14-2009 at 10:28 AM. Reason: Spelling
01-14-2009 , 10:24 AM
My stats here would be about 21/17 for those who asked for info.
01-14-2009 , 10:28 AM
Check and look to bet out on an A, K or non-A/K/Q heart river if checked to.
01-14-2009 , 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tib
I dont think the 3 of club is the good card to shove
That's what makes it a good card.
01-14-2009 , 10:33 AM
If I knew he couldn't really have a Q or 88 once he flats the flop, and I knew he wouldn't call super light on the turn with like 99 or TT or something, and my image was clean I'd want to bet since then he as like 99,TT,JJ a bunch and just folds.

But I think without knowing that he can't have a strong hand/won't call light thinking our ranges are pretty wide in this spot/what he thinks of us, I don't really want to shove on a card that a) doesn't make the board any scarier and b) doesn't help our equity.
01-14-2009 , 10:40 AM
no way he folds a pair
01-14-2009 , 11:02 AM
if your image is reasonable i think the 3 is a really good card for you to fire again on.
01-14-2009 , 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoldEmNewby
if your image is reasonable i think the 3 is a really good card for you to fire again on.
I mean I think this should be so true. The Hero is repping AA,KK,QQ or AQ or even KQ here so the 3 is a great card. Now I know that this is a narrowish range but villian shouldn't be too happy calling down with
6's, 7's 9's - at 21/17 his image can't be that loose that villian is putting him on complete air with this double barrel.

Perhaps it is a issue with the co vs btn dynamics or something but Tag should fold all low pp's and even consider dumping bad Q's just not sure that they will.
01-14-2009 , 01:30 PM
its fine to bet the turn here.
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