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100NL: fairly standard 3bet pot with TT 100NL: fairly standard 3bet pot with TT

06-23-2010 , 06:25 PM
Villain was fairly unknown.

Pre-flop i guess i could 4bet and pray he is loose.

On the turn I wasn't sure if i should bet and what size. I mean i don't what his range is, my idea of an unknown's range is like JJ+/AK.
I don't know if they are gonna check-raise bluff either... as id be bet/folding if i bet.

Ongame Network $100.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $49.85
CO: $158.30
Hero (BTN): $105.20
SB: $196.85
BB: $164.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN with T T
2 folds, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, BB raises to $11, Hero calls $8

Flop: ($22.50) 3 8 5 (2 players)
BB bets $14.00, Hero calls $14

Turn: ($50.50) 6 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero
06-23-2010 , 06:36 PM
id check, i see no value in betting at all.
06-23-2010 , 08:51 PM
b/f is not good here without a read that villain has a wide c/c range, which most people will not have.
06-23-2010 , 08:57 PM
Yeah, check back looks good.

How do you guys handle it if he bets a non Q+ river?
06-23-2010 , 09:04 PM
Nobody is betting to protect here? There are a ton of bad river cards, I don't expect him to look us up any lighter on the river than the turn, and we don't have enough history to bluffcatch the river if he bets, so I'd rather just win the pot now.
06-23-2010 , 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver Klozoff
How do you guys handle it if he bets a non Q+ river?
Think it's a definite call. See him betting overpairs on the Turn the great majority of the time (unless we've give him a reason to check/ship the Turn, and as an unknown we haven't).

BB range of JJ+/AK for an unknown is probably very unrealistic in a BTN v BB confrontation. He'll likely to be a lot wider than that here. So his river range contains loads of missed big cards (like AK/AQ minimum). That's without other air (more big cards, random 3-bet stuff).

I mean I don't expect him to bluff them too often but getting 2.5-1 we're clearly ahead given his line and range.
06-24-2010 , 03:46 AM
Thnx guys.

Results:
Spoiler:
I checked back and folded to bet on K river.
06-24-2010 , 03:58 AM
bet this all day. its a straight value/protection bet.

as for sizing, id probably bet $31 or so.
06-24-2010 , 04:03 AM
I fire this turn. Not only is it for value and protection (as others mentioned), but it's good for metagame as well since: a. people get frustrated and pay off lighter when they perceive you as playing really aggressively and betting all the time, and b. it will help balance your floating range.
06-24-2010 , 06:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dying Actors
bet this all day. its a straight value/protection bet.

as for sizing, id probably bet $31 or so.
i think this is a big mistake. assuming he has something like AK he has 6 outs, but let us take the assumption any card higher than J+ is an out for him, since we do not know if he has AK, AQ, KQ etc, i.e. we are looking for 14 outs here, i.e. his equity share of the pot by the turn is 28% * $50 = $14.
in essence then we are betting $31 to protect $14, which is an expensive bet to do.

i think the better move is to check and bluff catch the river and call (alternatively bluff raise the river).

theoretically i think this is the best way to profit from someone who bluffs a lot and not by stopping him from bluffing with a costly bet.

PS: as for a value bet, i dont think any worse will call us and better hands (QQ, JJ) are certainly calling.
06-24-2010 , 07:47 AM
i would expect villian to almost never have a C/Cing range in this spot - he is either CRAI`ing or folding on the turn here. So our options are between the "protection vs overs" (which everybody hates) bet and checkback to PControl/induce bluffs

I guess it is more based on our assumptions/EV calc.
I actually think it is close - you can betfold, betcall with a bit more aggro dynamics, and checkback here if you think he will bluff a lot of turns and would bet JJ+ on the turn like always.
06-24-2010 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgxou
i think this is a big mistake. assuming he has something like AK he has 6 outs, but let us take the assumption any card higher than J+ is an out for him, since we do not know if he has AK, AQ, KQ etc, i.e. we are looking for 14 outs here, i.e. his equity share of the pot by the turn is 28% * $50 = $14.
in essence then we are betting $31 to protect $14, which is an expensive bet to do.
this doesn't make any sense. first off, if his equity in the pot is $14, then our equity is $36. when you bet to protect...it's to protect your own equity. which would mean the $31 is to protect $36, not $14.

secondly, this is a poor way of doing equity calcs imo. especially in position. if villain has AQ, and a K peels off...it's a rare opponent who will donk lead and try to push us off. you should've stuck with the 6 outs assumption. we're betting to protect the pot which is 90% ours.
Quote:
i think the better move is to check and bluff catch the river and call (alternatively bluff raise the river).
theoretically i think this is the best way to profit from someone who bluffs a lot and not by stopping him from bluffing with a costly bet.
ya i agree. if we make up a read for villain that he bluffs a lot, that would be a better line imo. dunno what that has to do with the hand though.

Quote:
PS: as for a value bet, i dont think any worse will call us and better hands (QQ, JJ) are certainly calling.
this was a BB 3betting a BTN open. he could have so many hands he would call a bet with here. i wouldnt be surprised to see AK call a turn bet, thinking it might still be good. plus there are a bunch of sc's and 1 gappers that could call, and not just the diamonds.
06-24-2010 , 10:45 AM
after the call on the flop - we've put in 25% of our stack. When he checks the turn i think we're pot-committed - there's $50 in the pot and $80 in our stack - i would move all-in.

i think i would have minraised on the flop to help define my hand.
06-24-2010 , 11:13 AM
For all the experienced 100NL players out there. If you think villain has over cards to your TT as outs then why do we want to him to see these cards for free? When we have a hand and don't want someone to draw to a flush for free, don't we bet? I also see over cards as a draw and don't want him to get there for free. Villains check on the turn seems weak and we probably have the best hand, but I don't want him to see that card for free. I guess I'm betting here for value and to make him pay for the draw. Is that the same as "protection"?
06-24-2010 , 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushtart
after the call on the flop - we've put in 25% of our stack. When he checks the turn i think we're pot-committed - there's $50 in the pot and $80 in our stack - i would move all-in.

i think i would have minraised on the flop to help define my hand.
spew spew spew......

Why would you min raise this board? All better hands are calling and worse hands are folding....

Bet the turn, ship the river. As played K is a big part of his range, and i doubt an unknown would bluff a scary river like that vs you..

I agree with actor, overpairs would value the turn the vast majority of the time, by leading out it doesnt leave us with a tricky spot on the river like this line did.... Maybe i prefer something like 25-28 on the turn as it gives him more reasons to look you up.
06-24-2010 , 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swire
Why would you min raise this board? All better hands are calling and worse hands are folding....
A pair of tens requires more protection than a hand like TPTK (i.e. AQ on a Q72 board).

So yes, i would prefer to fold out the hands worse than ours & if called then i'm done with the hand - this is cheaper than having to call a bigger bet on the turn.
06-24-2010 , 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushtart
after the call on the flop - we've put in 25% of our stack. When he checks the turn i think we're pot-committed - there's $50 in the pot and $80 in our stack - i would move all-in.

i think i would have minraised on the flop to help define my hand.
Wow
06-24-2010 , 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dying Actors
bet this all day. its a straight value/protection bet.

as for sizing, id probably bet $31 or so.
31 is way too big. why 31 instead of 24?
06-24-2010 , 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Into2ndWind
31 is way too big. why 31 instead of 24?
eh, no reason.

$24 doesn't sound bad either.
06-24-2010 , 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dying Actors
eh, no reason.

$24 doesn't sound bad either.
gotta give him room to shove air to balance the times when he shoves a big hand here
06-24-2010 , 05:36 PM
bet $15
06-24-2010 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Into2ndWind
gotta give him room to shove air to balance the times when he shoves a big hand here
ya, i agree.

i think i like $24 more now.
06-25-2010 , 05:49 AM
Thnx guys, so bet/call is the standard here?
06-25-2010 , 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swire
Why would you min raise this board? All better hands are calling and worse hands are folding....
if that were true we should minraise all of our air since we'd be gettin sick odds on our bluff and he'd be folding 50%+ of his range
06-25-2010 , 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dying Actors
this doesn't make any sense. first off, if his equity in the pot is $14, then our equity is $36. when you bet to protect...it's to protect your own equity. which would mean the $31 is to protect $36, not $14.

ya i agree. if we make up a read for villain that he bluffs a lot, that would be a better line imo. dunno what that has to do with the hand though.
the point i want to bring forward is that when we are in a spot which in essence is way ahead/way behind (opponent has in my calculation 28% by the turn if we include his entire range of bluffing overcards, in your suggestion only 6 outs that is 12% equity) it is a mistake to amplify the pot. if the pot is to 90% ours as you suggest there is no need to protect anything as you get outdrawn very rarely.

      
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