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PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop?

09-08-2018 , 10:14 PM
So, first off.. Take it easy on me. It's my first HH post. Mostly a lurker up to this point, but interested in becoming more active & trying to improve my game. I apologize in advance if the format is bad. Any constructive criticism on format gladly accepted.

My thoughts on the hand: Villan had a VPIP of over 50%, but had been absolutely crushing the table. His WWSF was almost 50%. Also, up to this point, his 3-bet was 10%, & 3-bet range ONLY included AAxx. Not a single hand that went to showdown that villian had 3-bet wasn't AAxx. So I felt by calling that IF I hit a big flop it's an almost guaranteed double up as villian had been pretty sticky with AAxx. This is where I think I made an error. I feel like (especially since I put him on AAxx) I should have just folded & lived to fight another day. I'm not sure my hand was strong enough to warrant a call. This is one of those pre-flop situations where I feel like I never really know what to do.

Once the flop came I felt commited with my gut-shot & nut flush draw (plus backdoor diamonds & backdoor wheel draw). After the hand I looked it up & I did have +EV. I was 54% to win on the flop.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe my pre-flop call was correct & my flop shove is where I went wrong? Maybe I played it just fine like I did?

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

PL Omaha $0.25(BB)
CO ($38.83) [VPIP: 20.4% | PFR: 13.9% | AGG: 55.1% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 108]
BTN ($25.90) [VPIP: 20% | PFR: 14% | AGG: 40% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 50]
HERO ($11.99) [VPIP: 20.9% | PFR: 12% | AGG: 29.5% | 3-Bet: 4.5% | Hands: 17662]
BB ($237.17) [VPIP: 51.7% | PFR: 20.1% | AGG: 20.4% | 3-Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 176]
UTG ($31.97) [VPIP: 38.5% | PFR: 7.7% | AGG: 36.4% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 13]
HJ ($20.83) [VPIP: 26.3% | PFR: 14.7% | AGG: 24.7% | 3-Bet: 7.3% | Hands: 2403]

Dealt to Hero: 5 A J 7

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, HERO Raises To $0.75, BB Raises To $2.25, HERO Calls $1.50

Hero SPR on Flop: [2.16 effective]
Flop ($4.50): T Q 2
HERO Checks, BB Bets $4.28 (Rem. Stack: 230.64), HERO Raises To $9.74 (allin), BB Calls $5.46 (Rem. Stack: 225.18)

Turn ($23.98): T Q 2 5

River ($23.98): T Q 2 5 T

BB shows: A 6 3 A

BB wins: $22.79
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-08-2018 , 10:43 PM
Stacking off on the flop is super standard, pre-flop can be played differently and discussed in more depth

Mainly a call can be bad because this hand can be difficult to play on a lot of flops, especially out of position, that being said calling with a double suited hand to the ace and lots of ways to make straights is never going to be a large mistake for a single bet and should have good equity vs almost everything

Ex 37% vs top 2%, where its ace is frequently dominated

Last edited by monikrazy; 09-08-2018 at 10:53 PM.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-09-2018 , 01:34 PM
I do not call 3bets with an Ace or a pair in my hand...
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-09-2018 , 02:34 PM
Firstly, I'd also just pot the flop myself as you'll have more FE than with a CR and taking down the pot uncontested is a great result.

In general, I would 4bet pre at your stack depth, SBvsBB, against an aggro villain. You block AA, you are in decent shape vs AA, and you unblock KK/QQ. However, if you are sure that villain is only 3-betting AA, then its fine to just muck your hand.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-09-2018 , 03:14 PM
Imo fold preflop. You have a horrible hand vs AAxx.
You just happened to catch a decent flop.

Suited ace w/medium rundown (ex, T98....765) are OK hands to call with if you put villain on AAxx.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-09-2018 , 04:43 PM
Folding pre is bad. And "I've only seen him showdown AAxx after 3-betting therefore his 3-betting range is only AAxx" is bad reasoning.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-10-2018 , 08:25 AM
AA is not 10% of hands. Of course, it's still a small sample and it's possible that he ran super well and had AA every time he 3b. However, I would make an assumption on his stack-size and VPIP that he's aggressive and his 3b is definitely wider than AA.

Folding pre is absolutely terrible - you absolutely have a hand good enough to see a flop with and the stackoff is fine - could consider leading but x/r is fine too.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-10-2018 , 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingnite
Firstly, I'd also just pot the flop myself as you'll have more FE than with a CR and taking down the pot uncontested is a great result.
That was a thought too. I didn't figure I had too much FE with my stack size (SPR just above 2) & villians tendencies so far. My thought process with the CR was that I wanted to give him a chance to bluff & then subsequently get my stack in. I was getting it in either way. I see your point though, & the more I think about the hand the more I believe you to be correct.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-10-2018 , 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
AA is not 10% of hands. Of course, it's still a small sample and it's possible that he ran super well and had AA every time he 3b. However, I would make an assumption on his stack-size and VPIP that he's aggressive and his 3b is definitely wider than AA.

Folding pre is absolutely terrible - you absolutely have a hand good enough to see a flop with and the stackoff is fine - could consider leading but x/r is fine too.

He's 50/50 at best, playing OOP in a 3B pot in a high rake game.

Clear fold pf.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-10-2018 , 10:38 PM
Quote:
He's 50/50 at best
Getting 2:1.




Complete pre.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-11-2018 , 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponyneck
So, first off.. Take it easy on me. It's my first HH post. Mostly a lurker up to this point, but interested in becoming more active & trying to improve my game. I apologize in advance if the format is bad. Any constructive criticism on format gladly accepted.

My thoughts on the hand: Villan had a VPIP of over 50%, but had been absolutely crushing the table. His WWSF was almost 50%. Also, up to this point, his 3-bet was 10%, & 3-bet range ONLY included AAxx. Not a single hand that went to showdown that villian had 3-bet wasn't AAxx. So I felt by calling that IF I hit a big flop it's an almost guaranteed double up as villian had been pretty sticky with AAxx. This is where I think I made an error. I feel like (especially since I put him on AAxx) I should have just folded & lived to fight another day. I'm not sure my hand was strong enough to warrant a call. This is one of those pre-flop situations where I feel like I never really know what to do.

Once the flop came I felt commited with my gut-shot & nut flush draw (plus backdoor diamonds & backdoor wheel draw). After the hand I looked it up & I did have +EV. I was 54% to win on the flop.

Maybe I'm looking at this all wrong. Maybe my pre-flop call was correct & my flop shove is where I went wrong? Maybe I played it just fine like I did?

Hand History driven straight to this forum with DriveHUD Poker Tracking Software

PL Omaha $0.25(BB)
CO ($38.83) [VPIP: 20.4% | PFR: 13.9% | AGG: 55.1% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 108]
BTN ($25.90) [VPIP: 20% | PFR: 14% | AGG: 40% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 50]
HERO ($11.99) [VPIP: 20.9% | PFR: 12% | AGG: 29.5% | 3-Bet: 4.5% | Hands: 17662]
BB ($237.17) [VPIP: 51.7% | PFR: 20.1% | AGG: 20.4% | 3-Bet: 10.6% | Hands: 176]
UTG ($31.97) [VPIP: 38.5% | PFR: 7.7% | AGG: 36.4% | 3-Bet: 0% | Hands: 13]
HJ ($20.83) [VPIP: 26.3% | PFR: 14.7% | AGG: 24.7% | 3-Bet: 7.3% | Hands: 2403]

Dealt to Hero: 5 A J 7

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Folds, HERO Raises To $0.75, BB Raises To $2.25, HERO Calls $1.50

Hero SPR on Flop: [2.16 effective]
Flop ($4.50): T Q 2
HERO Checks, BB Bets $4.28 (Rem. Stack: 230.64), HERO Raises To $9.74 (allin), BB Calls $5.46 (Rem. Stack: 225.18)

Turn ($23.98): T Q 2 5

River ($23.98): T Q 2 5 T

BB shows: A 6 3 A

BB wins: $22.79
There's nothing wrong with folding this hand to a 3bet. You're oop and it's not as great as it looks. It kind of depends on the BB, and his postflop tendencies.

As played the check raise is horrific imo. I'm not sure what the point of it is? Your opponent can basically play perfectly against it. He's never folding anything but air (which he never cbets on this board unless he's a complete idiot) and you're getting just fine odds to c/c

If you're going to c/r then crai, but I don't see anything wrong with peeling and folding unimproved on the turn
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-11-2018 , 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot
There's nothing wrong with folding this hand to a 3bet. You're oop and it's not as great as it looks. It kind of depends on the BB, and his postflop tendencies.

As played the check raise is horrific imo. I'm not sure what the point of it is? Your opponent can basically play perfectly against it. He's never folding anything but air (which he never cbets on this board unless he's a complete idiot) and you're getting just fine odds to c/c

If you're going to c/r then crai, but I don't see anything wrong with peeling and folding unimproved on the turn
Is everyone on this forum just trolling these days? Literally everything you said is terrible. Like, really god damn awful.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-11-2018 , 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot
There's nothing wrong with folding this hand to a 3bet. You're oop and it's not as great as it looks. It kind of depends on the BB, and his postflop tendencies.

As played the check raise is horrific imo. I'm not sure what the point of it is? Your opponent can basically play perfectly against it. He's never folding anything but air (which he never cbets on this board unless he's a complete idiot) and you're getting just fine odds to c/c

If you're going to c/r then crai, but I don't see anything wrong with peeling and folding unimproved on the turn
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-11-2018 , 01:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
Is everyone on this forum just trolling these days? Literally everything you said is terrible. Like, really god damn awful.
Please elaborate
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-11-2018 , 06:39 PM
Because we are calling off 50% of effective stacks on the flop, in a spot where we can't reasonably put our opponent on a strong made hand (and hence can't fold if the turn pairs the board) check call and check raise are essentially the same play, as either way both players are going to be stacking off on all turn cards.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-11-2018 , 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot
Please elaborate
I already did - everything you said, do the opposite.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-12-2018 , 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
I already did - everything you said, do the opposite.
Right. Because we have two great holdem hands and playing out of position is so profitable, call the three bet and bet call all in on a board that smashes any reasonable 3 bet range is the best option.

I didnt see the stack sizes....
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote
09-17-2018 , 02:45 PM
Your hand is good enough against a 52/20 with 10.6% 3bet.

I´d just call PF.
Flop I think pot/call is more profitable than x/r because you can negate his equity when he folds. I don´t expect him to fold very often but we won´t fold our hand anyway.
PLO25  Mistake calling 3-bet preflop? Quote

      
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