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Thoughts on pot size donk? Thoughts on pot size donk?

05-20-2018 , 08:23 AM
.25 .50, 6 handed most have stacks. $50 plus, hero in SB w $75. Online but playing more like home game.

UTG limps, MP fold, CO limp, BTN (known solid) raises $2.00, SB Hero calls Ad Qd Qc 7h, BB calls as do all limpers.

I elect to call due to game dynamic, tables fold to 3b here was probably <10%, i was going to be OOP, and while the hand flops hard when it hits it doest connect to a lot of flops.

Pot $10
Flop Ac 7d 6d.
Hero???? Hero bets $10. BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls, BTN folds.

Pot $40.
Turn 3h (Ac 7d 6d)
Hero ??? Hero checks UTG bets $25 (leaving $20 behind), CO calls (has hero covered), Hero calls.

I check beccause my opponents are ****ty and the turn improves a lot of ****ty hands. After the action it appears UTG has 54xx, CO is either on a set of some ****ty FSD or top wrap straight draw.

Pot $115
River 9s (Ac 7d 6d 3h)
Hero checks, UTG checks CO checks

Comments on any street please
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-20-2018 , 11:52 AM
Under these conditions where you can not expect folds when you 3bet from sb,like

calling pre.You flopped huge obviously and it is hard to make mistake on the flop with

this kind of hand.I think leading even for pot size is fine,check/calling if Btn bets to

attract more players would be ok too,but you can not expect preflop raiser to cbet often in 5way pot.

Things get weird on turn.Spr with utg is 1,slighly bigger with Co.I would just pot it.

As played i would raise all in as i can not see how you are not ahead at least CO.Don`t

think 3 on turn improves lot of hands.If someone really called with 45 so be it,it is more likely 89tx type of hands are still there.

Last edited by Purasevic; 05-20-2018 at 11:58 AM.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-26-2018 , 05:51 PM
If UTG really had the nuts wouldn't they just pot the turn? So many redraws can burn 45 yet only betting a bit over half pot and more than half their stack. Could be sort of a semibluff/blocking bet with a big draw. You still have top 2 with plenty of outs for backup. As played facing the turn bet, pot the turn and charge CO the max / isolate utg.

River I guess check and pray CO doesn't jam. Gotta call closing the action if UTG shoves for $20
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-26-2018 , 08:01 PM
x/r flop is best line and it's not close.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-26-2018 , 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
x/r flop is best line and it's not close.
Why?
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-27-2018 , 09:36 AM
Because for a start, it's hard to have any sort of balanced donking range here. Also, we have a hand that has enough equity vs plenty of hands that want/are OK to GII that will bet when checked too but only flat facing such a scary sized donk. And it puts the most pressure on some hands that have us beat like a bare bottom set that might be capable of folding to a jam.

edit: tldr; our hand realises the most equity when we x/r because it has a lot on the flop and its not the end of the world if it gets checked through.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-27-2018 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
Because for a start, it's hard to have any sort of balanced donking range here. Also, we have a hand that has enough equity vs plenty of hands that want/are OK to GII that will bet when checked too but only flat facing such a scary sized donk. And it puts the most pressure on some hands that have us beat like a bare bottom set that might be capable of folding to a jam.

edit: tldr; our hand realises the most equity when we x/r because it has a lot on the flop and its not the end of the world if it gets checked through.
I get that it's not the end of the. world if it get checked through, but the problem with checking as I see it is we block most hands so ****ing hard and as menrioned earlier it's unlikely that OR will cbet into the field. Donking however gets equity from both inferior draws and top pair broadway cards.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-29-2018 , 08:33 PM
It's going to be pretty hard to balance a lead on this texture in this spot. It's really hard for you to have a nutted hand like top set given you'd be wanting to put more money in vs. several limpers & a BTN RFI. Also very difficult to rep too many bluffs or weaker draws betting into several players. You can argue betting protects your hand somewhat but you will be called in one or more spots often which will make playing future streets in the worst position very difficult, as you will have to check a tonne of turn cards (as the HH demonstrates). I think X/r / GII is the most optimal line here. Even if we X and the action checks through we can continue quite happily on most turns with how much equity we have.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-29-2018 , 09:01 PM
I see the rationale behind x/r, but this should be one of the best hands to lead. It doesn't play poorly on most turns (unlike a bare set or set + minimal backup, which gains a lot from just gii), and unlike many good (but not amazing) pure draws it doesn't suffer as much from getting raised. If we x/r this we're probably leading ~0%, which I doubt is correct against a field of players who probably bet too infrequently when checked to and call too much when led into, given OP's description of 'online but playing more like home game.'

That is also why I wouldn't worry about balance too much. Also there wouldn't be a stable GTO solution in a five-way pot anyway. However, even if so, a 'balanced leading range' in this spot doesn't have to include bluffs or weak draws. It just needs enough of those 'good but not great hands/draws' to allow people (BTN especially) to continue wide enough. If people play against us like we only lead quite strong hands, then stuff like bare A6 or the occasional FD+GS prints by being open-potted since they get so many folds -- so a hypothetical equilibrium could involve a mix of small percentages of those and similar types of hands.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-29-2018 , 10:57 PM
I think I prefer a lead. Problem is the raiser is the button and a “known solid”, meaning it’s very unlikely he’s just throwing out a routine cbet into four other players, but limpers still tend to just instinctively check to the raiser. So there’s a very real chance this is getting checked through, it may even be likely that it does. And I disagree that that wouldn’t be a big deal, I think it’s a disaster in missed value.

If we could be confident in getting a flop bet for whatever reason (limpers like donking or raiser let vets cbetting), I prefer a c/r just since there’s more value there.

Rest of hand is wp.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-30-2018 , 08:16 AM
Both make some good points I think I can def. see the merit of donking now.

@OP: side note on turn, I prob just jam it in here given UTG only has $20 back. Saves us from making a mistake vs UTG on the river but more importantly we are ahead of CO and want to either deny him his equity share or be forced to pay for it.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote
05-30-2018 , 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by F_Ivanovic
Both make some good points I think I can def. see the merit of donking now.

@OP: side note on turn, I prob just jam it in here given UTG only has $20 back. Saves us from making a mistake vs UTG on the river but more importantly we are ahead of CO and want to either deny him his equity share or be forced to pay for it.
I agree jamming turn is ideal in a vaccum. For a few reasons I put UTG on exactly 45xx here. I don't put players on exact hands often but after seeing him play for the last hour I just "knew" thats what he had. I debated the jam anyway due my belief CO was on the come but eventually decided to flat as 1) he had few if any clean outs, 2) I was likely behind, 3) I would get called down on a river shove regardless if I spiked gin.

In thd hand UTG did indeed have 45 and the CO had 661010.
Thoughts on pot size donk? Quote

      
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