Hi,

After 100k+ hands of non-zoom PLO, I noticed that my EV-winrate is negative when playing 2, 3 or 4-handed. I'm winning small at 5-handed (0.8bb/100), and big at 6-max (7bb/100). The sample size is definitely smaller at 2, 3 and 4-handed, but there must be many leaks in my play while tables are not full.

I was wondering if some of you experienced similar stats, and if so, where would you look to improve. I know this sounds quite general, and what needs to be done for me may not the same as for you.

I'm playing PLO50 to PLO200. I experienced the same phenomena while playing 5-Card PLO.

Thanks for any advice.

3-handed play is a subgame of 6-max: BTN vs blind(s), BvB. So technically there is nothing new there. 4-handed adds CO vs. BTN and CO vs. blind(s), and some mixed multiway scenarios. (HU has no direct corollary, however, and is a different game than 3-handed by a larger margin than 3-handed is different from 6-handed, despite the numbers.) You don't really attempt to play looser or even different 3- or 4-handed than 6-handed -- that just happens automatically, as a natural consequence of some tighter position-vs.-position interactions being gone. So if your 6-max game is well rounded you should have no trouble with 3- and 4-handed.

What seems possible is that you don't really have the looser position-vs.-position subgames worked out too well at a fundamental level. I'd suggest first looking into what your BTN opening is like, how you defend the blinds against late position, and how you play BvB -- and you can use all your hands for this. Also another big factor could be that in 6-handed play you are a beneficiary of the tables being softer. (A table that fills should on average be weaker than one that doesn't.) At a table with a fish, you might be able to get away with playing too tightly and passively against the more competent players, but at a 3- or 4-handed table, that won't fly.

I filtered to get my EV winrate from different positions.

I have very bad winrate from SB and BB in my opinion (-45 for SB and -75 from BB). Considering folding every SB gives you a winrate of -50, this is a major leak.

I guess I can manage to have a positive winrate at 6-max because blinds come at a lower frequency. I'll dig deaper into my blind stats to figure out what's going wrong with my SB and BB play. With a VPIP of 39 from SB and 42 from BB, my first plan will be to fold more. I guess I burned money with bad flushes with these stats.

Thanks for pointing me out the fact that 3,4 and 5 handed play is a sub game of 6-max.

You should be defending your BB wide versus button opens if SB folds so don't necessarily tighten up too much.
(Exactly how wide will vary by opponent, open size and take structure). As a sidebar to that, you need to avoid multi-way pots without strong multi-way hands. A lot of hands you can defend HU from the BB should be folded if another player has entered the pot.

I don't have the SB answer yet, as of my last review, I was still playing too loose from the SB.

I have no stats,but i know my winrate playing 3 or 4handed is definitely lower than in 6max full table.That`s why i generally avoid playing or just wait until table fill up.

The problem is that i play relatively tight in 6max which work good for me,but shorthanded you need to play lots of marginal hands which is not easy if you are not used doing that.I think Ray gave good arguments why this is happening.

BTW your winrates from sb and bb are not very bad at all,even biggest winners have

negative winrate from the blinds.Of course in 3max game you need to have atl least

sb positive winrate if you want to win overall.

No they are not. Those are horrible winrates for the blind positions

No

Re winrates (assuming no big fish):

6-handed, UTG-CO + BTN take money from the blinds; UTG and MP are marginally positive, CO a bunch more positive, BTN a bunch more so, and it all sums to zero without rake and negative with.

3-handed, BTN makes more money than he does in 6-max, since he always gets to open -- the chance to VPIP after a player is still +EV for the BTN with a selection of hands of course, but not as massively +EV as just getting the chance to open against the blinds in position.

But the BTN 3-handed shouldn't make more per hand than the collective UTG-BTN all make per hand 6-handed, so the blinds lose less than they do in 6-max (but still lose). For the SB to win would then require the BB to be massively more disadvantaged 3-handed than 6-, which shouldn't be the case because the BB gets more IP and HU play and more walks.

Heads up never fold to 3 bet love that game.the great great game pot limit Omaha