As a PLO noob it seems like I am constantly running my full houses into bigger fulls or even quads and paying villians off.

PokerStars - $0.05 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 100 BB
SB: 67 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 57.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 113.2 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
CO: 118.2 BB (VPIP: 71.43, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 5 K 6 6

UTG calls 1 BB, CO calls 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, SB calls 0.6 BB, BB checks

Flop: (5 BB, 5 players) 6 9 9
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets 5 BB, SB calls 5 BB, fold, fold, fold

Turn: (15 BB, 2 players) 3
SB bets 6 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

River: (27 BB, 2 players) 5
SB bets 22 BB, Hero raises to 88 BB and is all-in, SB calls 33 BB and is all-in

Hero shows 5 K 6 6 (Full House, Sixes full of Nines)
(Pre 47%, Flop 0.3%, Turn 0%)
SB shows 8 7 9 6 (Full House, Nines full of Sixes)
(Pre 53%, Flop 99.8%, Turn 100%)

SB wins 130.2 BB

I want to say this hand as well as similar hands are standard cooler situations and I should be putting as much as possible in the middle. But in the back of my mind I wonder if I should know to lay these lo fulls down when my villains are all too happy to put their stacks up. Surely this can't be the case at PLO 5 though, can it?

This is a spot where someone from a NLHE background/ new to PLO can lose a lot of money and from an experienced PLO perspective is far from a cooler. When a lot of money goes into a pot and you have an underfull your hand is basically a bluff/ thin vbet catcher at best.

Raising river is a complete spew imo, your opponent is repping 9's full, like if he has a FH it's never going to be worse than yours and if you have him beat he won't be calling the river raise. Betting flop and calling down turn & river is ok if you think villain might donk some 9xxx w/ over card type hands but most of the time villain has 9's full here when he takes this line based on my assumption of players at these stakes.

Yeah, after this has happened to me a number of times I just have slowly started wondering about the situation. One thing I am having trouble with is tightening up when the dynamics of the hand shift towards the villains and they start acting up and getting aggressive.

Thanks a lot for the good info and advice!

This one was bad play unfortunately. The c/c lead line on a texture which didn't change is more often than not a "nutted line" in this case which would mean hands 93+ which all happen to beat your underboat. As played just call river after calling turn although vs that turn lead sizing I'm more inclined to raise quite large and check behind river.

Hello, I think you make the mistake a lot earlier in this hand.

The more people in the hand the closer your hand has to be to the nuts to withstand any heat. This means: While it can be ok to play small pairs in a headsup pot, they become incredibly dangerous in a multiway pot. The small pairs don't have any value outside from hitting a set. In a multiway pot, you will only get action with a small set from bigger sets or way bigger draws. So, what you are setting yourself up to win a small pot or lose a big one. Perfect example for negative implied odds (The same applies for the King-high flush draw).

However, if you like to play lose, then limping behind with this hand is fine (I would only play this hand, if I had reason to believe, that I can outplay my opponents postflop). Just be aware, you joined a multiway pot with a marginal hand and let go, if the action indicates that you should.

So, the reason you are running a lot into "cooler" situations is: Those aren't coolers at all, you set yourself up for this with your hand selection.

Idk I think the hand is fair enough to play. I'm on the button getting a good price thanks to the two limpers. Raising is too loose and folding is probably too nitty. It isn't like I'm taking this hand past the flop with air. I def think it's a post flop problem.

My VPIP over that session was 19.92. Seems fine all things considered.

Also as you've mentioned having "the nuts pre" in this situation here is the numbers

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

1,086,008 trials (Exhaustive)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
5hKd6h6d	51.27%	555,838	1,866
8c7d9c6s	48.73%	528,304	1,866

As I said, if you are the lose type of guy. Go ahead play that hand. It's not like it is completly useless. But part of being able to play these kinds of hands profitably is letting go of them, if the action indicates you are beat. I think the guys above did a good job on explaining the mistakes about the way the actual hand played out.

In my opinion, PLO isn't about pre flop equities, I think it is rather a game of implied odds. You said yourself, that you get into these "cooler" situations a lot. And I assume, it happens, because you overplay marginal hands like small pocket pairs.

For example, a pair of 66s can't physically ever flop topset without a straight being possible on the board. So, if most hands that go to the flop contain broadway cards or are some rundown type hands. On what flops do you think, you will hit a) A very strong hand and b) Get a lot of action from worse?

Of course, if you are confident that you are the best player at the table and people will give you action with bottom two pair, then you can probably play any 4 cards from late position profitably. The example however suggests, this is not the case.

Here is a nice video from Joe Ingram that demonstrates what I am talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6Ds...77OrPa&index=3

In some games, I will take any high pair and any suited Ace hand to the flop, because it is cheap and I am garantueed to make tons of money just from set over set and flush over flush scenarios.

Well, to each his own,

cheers

Yeah, you could be right. In general I have been trying to work on my pre flop hand selection. I def plan on going back through my db and looking over similar hands to see if this is the case. Thanks for linking that video I will have to watch it when I get time in a little bit as I am trying to put in more study volume.

I also found this video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cE9LJzZSWfc , the pre action is a bit different but the hand selection sentiments are similar and the post flop advice I have gotten ITT is reiterated.

Don't watch joey vids lol he literally said in a doug pod that he purposely puts bad information in there to mislead new players

I remember him mentioning this on his own podcast before. I could be wrong but I think it is easy to tell when he is being "misleading".

He seems to say things like "IDK I guess you can make a case for this, IDK" and "everybody's got their own style this could be right IDK", Reverse blockers, etc. Stuff that if you can't figure out is wrong, you're probably hopeless to begin with.

With that being said I also think he gives a lot of good info and perspective. Seems like it would be a lot of effort to put out so many videos and so much recording time just to be a full blown troll with every bit of information being false. If this were the case he could probably be an actor and make much more money than being a poker player/personality.

do you really wanna be worrying about potentially harmful information? I mean you cant take anyone's word as gospel, but a person who's openly admitted putting in misleading info into his videos... maybe not the best videos to be watching lol

pre flop what's wrong potting? IMO its better to pot there than overlimp. as caterina said your never gonna hit a hand your that comfortable with multiway that deep when you limp and I agree that's likely why your running into trouble post flop a lot.

I am a rookie myself, but here I have an example, where I fold a wrap without even thinking for a second. Note how the hand plays out.

I have read it somewhere, you gotta give your opponent credit that he actually has the hand he is representing.

Also, I strongly suggest you study Hwang's Book on Pot Limit Omaha. It goes to great lengths explaining which hands are good/bad and why.



*In case somebody wonders: Normally I would consider 3betting with this hand from the button. But this table had a special dynamic, where people were very unlikely to fold. (We had 4way 3 and even 4bet pots before)

Why are we potting? If we don't think the hand is good then isn't potting just going to over inflate the pot, causing a bad situation to become worse? Caterina suggested we either fold pre or fold post. Maybe the hand should just be folded pre (depending on how nitty you want to be). Potting after two limpers with the SB and BB still left seems like it is going to get us in a worse situation right out of the gate. Over the last 10k hands I've played at PLO 5 I can count on one hand how many times four villians have simply folded to a pot sized bet preflop. The likely scenario at this level is that either I am going to get called by at the very least one villain, or 3bet. I assume the point in putting in the raise was to take down the hand pre because the hand really isn't good enough to raise for value. But that's not happening in these games. If we get 3bet we are folding this hand, which is just giving away money.

Also I'm 100BB's pre, seems pretty standard depth.

You both are also making an assumption that this one hand is the reason why I keep running into these situations. This is one hand, not a very big sample size. Previously mentioned ITT it is my post flop play and NL experience which is magnifying these situations. The problem is overvaluing these mirage type hands like underfulls and other non nut hands that seems like monsters from a two card perspective.

This hand you've posted is interesting but it doesn't seem that similar. Preflop action is similar but beyond that it is very different. OTF you flop an under wrap (where as I flop a full rather than an unmade drawing hand), obv that is to be played very cautiously because even when you make your hand a lot still beats you and some of your outs complete flush draws, etc. And I would make sure you're not being too results oriented in these hands as well. Just bc you folded a wrap here to a pot sized from someone who flops the nuts doesn't mean it is always going to be the move to make.

I have some hands from my last couple of sessions where I play these under fulls to the advice of the thread and save a lot of money from how I would have previously played them. Including one where I check down my UF OTR and catch villain trying to trap me with Aces full. I'll probably post at least one or two in here when I am able to download them. Thanks everyone!

Also which of Hwangs books are you referring to? I have Pot-Limit Omaha Poker which I didn't bother to read after several members have said the strategies are far too nitty and the book was written in regards to FR.

I'm not worrying about potentially harmful information. Granted if you think Joey is actually being serious when he accounts for things like back door quad draws, then you probably should be. It seems a bit tin foil hat-ish to totally discount all advice from someone who has put in so much effort and specialization in the game because he makes a few jokes with a straight face on camera lol

Also remember if you don't believe what he is saying in any given situation you can simply run the numbers and see...

Sorry, if I come across like this. I'm actually not suggesting to fold this hand everytime. Rather I think this should be dependant on your postflop-abilities compared relative to those of the other players and their tendencies. And if this thread improved your post flop abilities with this type of hand to the point, where you can play it "profitably" (a small loss is still a loss) then there is no further need to discuss.

Maybe we can agree that these situations are just the classic "way behind, way ahead" situations, familiar from NLHE, where we pretty much always want to keep the pot small.

Yepp, completly agree. I actually didn't think about him having the nuts, but rather
- This board nails his UTG raising range
- He is very unlikely to bet into 4 people with a hand that doesn't crush me.
- It will be very difficult for me to continue on later streets, no matter what he has.

Maybe I got carried a way a little bit here, but I felt from the perspective of a new PLO player, he looks at a very strong hand and overvalues it a lot in this spot. Just like underfulls, middlesets, Queen high flushes and so on.

I am talking about Pot-Limit-Omaha Poker. His strategy is maybe outdated and surely not fully applicable for 6-max games (It was never intended too). I think, it is not about using his strategy, but rather the thorough study of starting hands and there components that give a solid basis to anyone, when they want to decide, wether or not to play a certain hand from a certain position in a given situation.
Don't know about the advice you got, but the starting hands category is still mandatory lecture as mentioned in the "PLO from Scratch" series, which everyone seems to recommend and which isn't outdated at all.

So yeah, I think, you should read the chapter about starting hand selection and if you are interested about straight draws. Everything else isn't that important/applicable and probably outdated.

1) You don't have to apologize for anything, we are simply having a discussion about various aspects of this hand and similar situations, etc. Don't hold off on any insight, suggestions, or opinions- it is all in the name of getting better. And I recognize the merit of your suggestion that this hand started off bad from the very beginning.

2) IMO this over everything.

3) I will have to check it out at least for starting hands. I recognize I beg chunk of my game that I need to work on is pre flop. I feel like I am good most of the time but time to time situational I'm either too nitty are too loose.

Hwang has three advanced PLO books which are written for the shorthanded game. The problem is that stealing is a featured concept and it doesn't work as well vs players who use multi-table 6-max and or use HUDs.

This looking better guys? Obv a few hands ins't a huge sample size but I think it is safe to make the assumption my game has been upgraded a little bit from how I would have played these before.

PokerStars - $0.05 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 162.8 BB (VPIP: 36.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
SB: 42.6 BB (VPIP: 54.55, PFR: 27.27, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
BB: 114.2 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
UTG: 291 BB (VPIP: 24.00, PFR: 12.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (CO): 99.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 9 J 7 7

fold, Hero calls 1 BB, fold, SB calls 0.6 BB, BB checks

Flop: (3 BB, 3 players) Q Q A
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (3 BB, 3 players) 7
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 3 BB, SB calls 3 BB, fold

River: (9 BB, 2 players) 9
SB checks, Hero checks

SB shows Q A 3 A (Full House, Aces full of Queens)
(Pre 72%, Flop 100%, Turn 100%)

Hero mucks 9 J 7 7 (Full House, Sevens full of Queens)
(Pre 28%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)

SB wins 8.6 BB



I win this one but keep the pot under control and overall feel my play is much better.

PokerStars - $0.05 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 26.4 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 125.2 BB
CO: 66 BB
BTN: 111.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 6 8 7 6

UTG raises to 3.4 BB, CO calls 3.4 BB, BTN calls 3.4 BB, SB calls 3 BB, Hero calls 2.4 BB

Flop: (17 BB, 5 players) 5 K 5
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, BTN checks

Turn: (17 BB, 5 players) 6
SB checks, Hero bets 10.4 BB, fold, fold, BTN raises to 20.8 BB, fold, Hero calls 10.4 BB

River: (58.6 BB, 2 players) 3
Hero checks, BTN checks

Hero shows 6 8 7 6 (Full House, Sixes full of Fives)
(Pre 43%, Flop 14%, Turn 96%)

BTN mucks 6 Q 7 5 (Full House, Fives full of Sixes)
(Pre 57%, Flop 86%, Turn 4%)
Hero wins 55.8 BB

Raising the river here is absurd, river is a fold or a crying call.

lol @ first hand SB got max value there

Fair assumption considering stacks went in.

The two new hands you posted:

Results aside, checking back 777 there is giving away lots of EV. It's just a 9 bb pot. Your hand is easily worth another street of value (and would be even in a larger pot). Ignore me if you are a MartinK-tier feel player. (Also, limping the CO?)

The second hand is the standard way of playing that. Villain's line is definitely worth a note, as it reveals a lot about how they approach PLO.

New hands ...

#1 (J9)77 is not good, if I wanted to play it I'd be raising button hoping for folds. Betting pot on turn seems bad, but I guess it's a limped pot and can look weaker. I guess 1/2 pot bet/fold river is best. Make a note about SB.

#2 This is very different from your other hands, anyone with a 5 is drawing almost dead vs. you. Even worse if villain ever has 55 or KK he's probably betting AI on the river, so you need to put your money in against 65/K5 and 5x/cc hands that want to play.

Betting pot is fine, I think; it's a 3bb pot.