Just joking about the title.


PLAYER READS AND STACKS

"Solid Guy (UTG + 2, $212): very good TAG/LAG, well known to me. He's short-stacking for some reason unknown to me today. Sat down 20-30 min ago.

"Wild Guy" (BB, $850): plays very loose and somewhat aggressive pre. Post he becomes more rational and can be tough, especially as the bets get bigger, but he also has no fear of making or calling huge bets.

I peg his mentality as the "show aggression until they play back then fall into line when they're not expecting it," variety, but without the understanding of hand values needed to make that work well. He'll often chase really weak draws. Earlier he picked off my 3-barrel bluff by making backdoor 9-high clubs on the river; he correctly assessed that my range was super-polarized and shouldn't include many flushes. On the other hand, he called a substantial turn bet with second pair and a backdoor 9-high flush draw.

I cover everyone with $1100.

Population reads: This game has been really wild preflop with frequent straddling and lots of very multiway pots. For example, it's not uncommon to have a button straddle to $10, four calls, a PSR to $70, and then two or three call that for a pot of ~80 big blinds preflop. But again, virtually no one ever 3-bets (not counting raising a straddle as a 3-bet) without AA. Stacks around between $100 and $700 or so, so there's not much play beyond the flop.


THE HAND
Live $1-3 PLO, max buyin $300
($300 statutory max bet or raise; max bet and 3 raises, aka "4 bet," per round not counting straddle)
8 dealt in
I button straddle to $6

SB fold
Wild Guy calls
UTG calls
F
Solid guy R to $15
F
C

I have A224 -- $6 already in front of me, $9 more is the action to me.

So I ????

My preflop action and discussion:

Without yet reading the spoiler, I'd assume Fold > 3b > Call, but my sense is that the EV between these options runs close and is arguable one way or another. Yes we have the button, and yes that raise sizing by villain is "WTF" and offering us sick odds, but our hand is close to trash in so many ways. So many better candidate hands to choose from. We're not particularly deep w/ the OR, our A is usually dominated, we have a redundant club, super marginal sucker straight draw potential, and @ best we can hope to make bottom set w/ 22. Plus, wild guy is definitely gonna get in there and mix it up (whether we call or 3b), diluting our equity by more than we'd like.

Fold pre

Thanks. Good points. I'm curious what the bottom of range is for you (or anyone who folds this). For example, how do you play the following hands in this spot?:

1. A224
   
   
2. A524
   
   
3. A778

(I consider each of these marginally better than (A24)2 in different ways but not much better.)

I'd play H#3, fold H#1/H#2. At least 87 gives us some SD potential, and 77 can potentially flop top set without a straight being on board (66-22 can't do that). The first two hands are equally trashy IMO, and we should only be flatting them OTB if we think A) villain is particularly weak/predictable, and B) another player like Wild Guy won't get involved and dilute our total equity. Not sure any factor(s) really align for you here except the positional advantage.

Just my two cents.

Edit - As for other potential candidate holdings we can either flat or 3b with toward the bottom of our range in position, I tend to subscribe to Hwang's small-ball methodology on this. Stuff like JT84ss, QT96ds, and even well structured "two holdem hands" like AK76ds, etc.

It's possible that the only 22xx hands I would always play in this spot are AA22-TT22. I'd fold 3322ds.

Can you fold the flop with bottom set or a bottom wrap without putting more money in the pot?

urubu never folded 22xx hands

i'de fold em all...

This surprises me. I see it as 1 >>> 3 > 2 (though 3 vs 2 is close), all playable for these odds.

To me the key feature of this set of hands in this game is the suited ace. Really, it's the only thing that makes any of those hands playable. People know in this game know they shouldn't chase low FDs and then pay off but they do anyway. Wild guy fits that profile especially. I tend to underestimate the damage of the oversuit (third club). It's not just that it takes away an out. If my opponents play any suited hand, with my standard nut flush there are 8 choose 2 = 28 different two-card combos they can have to pay me off. With an extra club dead, there are 7 choose 2 = 21. Getting paid off 25% less often is huge.

Truthfully though I'm never playing it, I think A222 might be nominally profitable in this game. NFDs are just that valuable.

So, take away the oversuit and I suspect this hand is fine, especially at crazy preflop odds. Make it A224 and now you have a hand that Jeff Hwang recognizes as a bona fide OK speculative hand for noobs (mostly because it can flop set plus NFD more easily).



As for hands 2 and 3....
My view: 77 vs 22 doesn't add that much. Obviously it's great against sets of treys through sixes or stupid two pairs that fill up when a low card pairs. "Can potentially flop top set without a straight being on board" seems like little more than a fun trivia question to me. Playing it for the 7-x-2 potential (x=3 through 6) or 7-x-x- where x = a low pair seems almost as speculative as playing A24 for the nut wheel potential. Not literally of course (precisely 53A is harder and I have an ace) but in terms of whether it makes a bad hand marginally OK.

87 doesn't make many nut straights, although obviously they fade fewer overcards than nut wheels do. If it were in position at a mid-low SPR I'd much rather have the wrappiness than one straight dyad 87 plus medium pair. With an ambiguous SPR it's not clear to me.




But the NFD potential with a big stack set to enter, that's golden. So I'm taking (A2)24 out of the three.

For a 3! deeper stacked where I can isolate, that's an OK approach. In this game it's plausible I might get my 3! called multiway, which is not good. But in this particular spot anything without an ace like (J4)T8 runs a huge risk of getting HU against Sold Guy's AAxx or at least his KQJT type hand with SPR < 1 which is just burning money. With an ace, it's less likely Solid Guy has aces two but much more damaging to be HU when he does.

But truthfully, as much as I want to get better at PLO, I feel like I should save the small ball tactics for a different game type where they're more likely to work, not build $300 6-way preflop pots and play limit Omaha high postflop.

(LOLWashington)

Little exaggeration, not much of one. People really love their preflop lottery tickets in this game.

What about AK22? (How much does the Jeff Hwang stamp of approval from the first, big pot book matter to you?)

That is exactly what I was thinking about and should be thinking about before playing this dreck.

Another subtlety, which I didn't think about, is the difficulty of a hand like this with multiple SPR's multiway. Against Solid Guy I'm headed for a flop SPR between 2 and 3. At that SPR I'm fine stacking off with non-nut hands, especially bizarre ones that require low cards on board that are unlikely to hit his raising range that hard.

Against other people the SPR may fall anywhere between 4 and 10. Obviously against those bottom set or a non-nut wrap are almost worthless if anyone else breathes on the pot.

So we can play this accurately on the button at SPR=2.5 and we can play it fairly accurately at SPR=10. But can we play it accurately at both simultaneously?

(In our next episode, we find out if Hero can play it accurately at both SPRs simultaneously. Stay tuned.)

I probably play tighter and more passively than Hwang advises in that book. His book more or less confirmed a bunch of ideas about tight PLO play that I had already developed from playing online.

BTW, I took a look at his book since you mentioned him and he rates suited ace hands containing 23 and 24 as trash that he ranks below the weak suited ace hands that he considers as marginal. His reasoning is the same as mine: fear of the non-nut straight potential. I feast on players who play too many sucker wraps. I don't want to make the same mistake that they do.

I suppose I should clarify that I would fold most 22xx hands at full ring, but I will be looser in a short-handed game. Even short-handed, bottom set is not a hand you want to stack off with on a regular basis, though.

Suited aces without much else

Another great subdiscussion is whether suited aces can ever be strong enough on their own to play without anything else in a "normally stacked" game. Obviously 1000 bb deep against opponents who will often put in raises with worse, anything that can make the nuts is often a no-brainer.

I saw an old primer 2+2 post on PLO that said basically always play QQ+ and Axs (at reasonable raise size/stack size) for pure one-way potential because people will pay off. The game has changed some places, but I play in a new game where people are really really loose. However, it's a $300 max buy in, $300 max bet, so not usually very deep.

EDIT: OTOH a lot of the gamblers just throw money in until they have $1000 stacks so I somewhat retract that.

Regarding (AK)22

But the difference between 32 or 42 and an offsuit 22 is that (NFD + bad set) potential. Except in really special circumstances where my opponent HAS to have a set I'd be willing to jam with A322 on my jackpot 2x:x flop. Even if my opponent is fairly likely to have an overset, 22 adds an extra out plus blocks two more FH outs, so I'm drawing stronger to a flush.

My view may be colored by the fact that my combination of table image and player pool means that I have had opponents fold the nut flush to my straight flush on an unpaired board multiple times.

1) A224ss is not a "speculative" hand in the Hwang system. One way suited Aces are ~= 3-card RD ss + dangler - categorized as "marginal" late position hands that can play OK @ various depths depending on opponent's mistakes. He puts bare KK-JJ in the same category. Where you rank them in the marginal tier is a matter of taste iyam.

2) You should probably fold A877ccc as well, because really your goal w/ those hands in an implied odds game is to flop a set + FD. But of those 3 its way more playable than the first two for the reasons I listed. Backup SD & top set potential is a bigger deal than you think.

3) I think overall naked Axsxx is crap. If your game conditions warrant playing the most marginal of ranges, then go for it I guess.

Interesting discussion. Cheers.

THE FLOP

So I called, Wild Guy called, UTG called, and we took a flop.

Well, I flopped really well:
852

It was checked to me, I bet half pot, Wild Guy XR, and we got it all in. He showed a King high club flush and I won a monster pot.

Hahahahahahahajustkidding*!




Actual flop ($76, 5 players)
652

I have bottom set. I also have a gutshot to a technically second-nut but actually garbage "four and a piece" six-high straight.

X (my notation for check)
X
Solid guy bets $75. He has $122 behind.
X
Hero ?????






*(Although we all probably should post more hands where we flop well.)

Think this is a call/evaluate. Yeah, were happy to GII now (or OTT) vs the ORs AAxx/KKxx & 3 SPR, but we're in no-mans land deepstacked against wild guy & random guy on this board too with what is essentially a small pot hand.

i seriously doubt, he raised pre with 34xx or 55xx, 66xx, i could be wrong but, would you raise with them urself?
i think his hand range is more weighted towards flush draws: Axxxdd, 7899dd type hands, maybe mix in some 5678double suited kinda range as well...
btw, i am a n00b on plo, learning atm, just thinking about these ranges is more likely
i doubt villain with just checks thru with his Axxxdd draws, and mix in some 3/4/5/6 in along with those ace high flush draw, villain will think he has good equity in the pot hence the pot bet

so i probably just stick it in and pray for the best...the worst case scenario is vs 55/66, best case scenario is vs st8 wraps, fd etc.....
against 34, we are only slightly -EV
when we jam, we need about 42% equity to break even, if we can rule out 55/66 in his range, it seems like the easiest jam ever

yes i am just starting out in PLO, so i could be wrong...but we need some logic to put villain on a hand range when he raises pre and cbets pot...hence my line of thought

just realized, there are more players to act, so instead of a jam, just a normal raise, and evaluate if someone calls/jams you
anyways point is im not folding this hand vs this villain

Consider the following scenarios:

1) You call
2) You make a small raise
3) You raise big

In all of these, what do you do if you get raised? What are the hand ranges that would raise you vs the hand ranges that would call behind?

Are the rules that a raise behind you is $300 on top maximum because it is really more of a spread limit game? That probably makes raising more attractive if they can't fully pot it.

Spinoff about preflop hands like A422 here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/3...-games-1717720

Oops, didn't mean to let this sit for so long.

Regardless of which of the three I do, against a XR by either Wild Guy I can make a sad-but-serene fold. Although I have good equity against 43 and even better against a combo draw, the implied odds against a deep stack are horrible.

Against a XR by UTG I just get it in. I didn't give her stack above but IIRC it was around $300 to start. Most likely a XR is 43 so I have fine equity. Occasionally I'm against 66 and just pray I spike my gutshot and it's good.

Yep. But I don't understand your conclusion there. If I pot to make it $300 to go, a raise by Wild Guy to $600 is stack-committing every bit as much as a repot all in. If I minraise to make it $150 to go, a raise to $450 is still stack-committing (something like one $300 bet left).

THE TURN


Recap:

A224

I button straddle to $6. Wild Guy calls from BB, UTG calls, Solid guy UTG+2 R to $15, another C, I C.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKQJ10

Flop ($76, 5 players)
652

Wild Guy X
UTG X
Solid Guy bets $75
F

I decided to call. Not ready to commit my stack against Wild Guy but will get it in vs the other two.

Wild Guy C
F

Turn ($301, 3 players)

(6d5h2d) Q

Wild Guy X
Solid Guy shoves for $122
Hero ????

I feel inclined to call again. Maybe a shove is best (aka wild guy seems draw heavy having not raised flop), but I hope wild guy just calls (or folds) & we get to x it down otr. Obviously we shouldn't expect wild guy to do anything too crazy here with an all in player, so we can probably safely fold to a raise still.

It makes it easier for you in the scenario where Wild Guy calls and donks the turn. It might make his non-folding range wider since he knows he doesn't have to commit his stack on the next street. Maybe not specifically this guy, but for some reason, there are also some players who hate calling all-in with a draw but will call off 75% of their chips on the turn because it is not all-in. He may think that he can fold you off a hand if he could bet the full size of the pot, but might not push certain hands because the bet limit makes him feel he can't bluff you because he isn't sophisticated enough to think in terms of pot-commitment.

I said "probably" because it might be a small effect.

You should raise if you think Wild Guy would have raised the flop with any set or straight. Sucks if he had a garbage hand on the flop like QQxx with a diamond draw.

Wild guy has a lot of weak draws in his range, I feel like raising small gives you a lot of opportunity to get value from those draws, and has a stack size of 775 about. So if we raise for the max amount he can pot it over us with his nutted hands to go all in, and we would have to call 300 more to win the 1600 pot, which gives us equity against his straights that might have for some reason decided to slow play the double diamond board.

I just have a hard time believing that we're ever behind here given the board and how the action went. Sure sometimes the guy has a higher set or turned a set, but there's just so much in his range that we can get value from that might feel obligated to call given the pot size and action already. Us betting on this board also might get us another river bet when a card like Q or 5 come, he could very clearly be focusing only on how his hand beats the current nuts, not the future nuts.

I guess the other way we could try to play it is just call on the turn with the intention of possibly getting another value bet from 2 pair hands on a brick river that we might not normally get. After all, the way action went, we really don't need many nut holdings to call the turn shove from a short stacker, so if we think we can get a reasonable amount of hero calls on the turn from the wild guy we can just call. If we call and get repopped, then we'd need to call 300 to win ~970? (545 from our dead money plus his 422), which isn't technically enough equity, but wild guy will have ~300 left and pretty much have to call off any river bet, so I feel like it's worth calling even if we need to boat up.

So I guess if it were me I'd probably go somewhere between minraising and potting it just to force the draws to pay with the intention of calling some river bluffs on straightening cards and hating life if a diamond gets there.