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Small Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 1/2 and below pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 09-03-2009, 04:41 PM   #126
zolih
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

standard bluff? just sat down 5hand ago. hud says 40/20/2 but only 14 hands.
the only hand I worry about is KQ KT

$0.5/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
FullTiltPoker
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($38.50)
UTG+1 ($261.10)
Hero (CO) ($100.00)
BTN ($194.35)
SB ($81.85)
BB ($100.00)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is CO 5 6 A 9
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: 5 J Q ($8.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, BTN calls $7

Turn: T ($22.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $20, BTN calls $20

River: 9 ($62.50, 2 players)
[color="#cc0000"]Hero bets $48
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:07 PM   #127
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

I dislike it, because his river range consists of a lot of straights, KQJ, KTxx, KJxx with hearts, and so on. I really hate it, also make it less than that, half pot should accomplish the same.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:57 PM   #128
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

ez muck?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $201.20
Hero (BTN/SB): $240.60

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN/SB with K T J 4
Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $6

Flop: ($18.00) 7 K 2 (2 players)
BB bets $17.50, Hero calls $17.50

Turn: ($53.00) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $52, BB calls $52

River: ($157.00) T (2 players)
BB bets $122.70 all in, Hero
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:58 PM   #129
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

ez shove?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $200.00
Hero (BTN/SB): $151.70

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN/SB with 8 5 9 4
Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $6

Flop: ($18.00) 6 A 7 (2 players)
BB bets $12, Hero raises to $53.50, BB raises to $178, Hero calls $89.20 all in
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:03 PM   #130
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $114.00
Hero (BTN/SB): $156.10

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN/SB with 7 8 K K
Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $8, Hero raises to $24, BB calls $16

Flop: ($48.00) Q T 2 (2 players)
BB checks ($90 left), Hero? i have to shove now? right?
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:03 PM   #131
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2+2=5 View Post
ez shove?

Poker Stars $0.50/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 2 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $200.00
Hero (BTN/SB): $151.70

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is BTN/SB with 8 5 9 4
Hero raises to $3, BB raises to $9, Hero calls $6

Flop: ($18.00) 6 A 7 (2 players)
BB bets $12, Hero raises to $53.50, BB raises to $178, Hero calls $89.20 all in
you're a favorite over top set, so yes.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:04 PM   #132
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

^^ ok ty
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:27 PM   #133
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

... although if he has top set he'll also have the nfd quite a lot of the time as well. If the flop were A 6 7 you'd be in better shape more of the time. Still, you have a couple of straight flush outs which help a bit, and you're never in really awful shape so you can't fold.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:35 PM   #134
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

yeah i obv cant's fold, i just posted to ask it there any merits to calling flop? of shoving is way better?
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:06 AM   #135
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

The trouble with shoving is that you only really get action the times you're not in good shape... I mean are you just raising to try to get him to fold a random Ace? Or a better flush draw with no pair? This case is fairly unusual because your draw is so huge you're probably about 70% to hit a straight or flush by the river, so you could almost slow-play it. I guess what I'm saying is your hand has so much value you don't really need to fold out the "air" part of his range with a raise (you can do that on a later street anyway). And you've got position to play with. I'm all for playing draws aggressively, but in this case the ace on the board changes things a bit.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:37 AM   #136
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

^^Wat? If you don't wanna raise the flop with this hand I seriously doubt you're calling so you can do some fancy float turn shove semi-bluff and think that in game you'd be much more likely to just flat and hope. This is a 3-bet pot and you gain a lot from getting him to fold ax 67 etc etc and even if he doesn't fold we're generally still fist pumping. To give you some perspective, we're less than a 3;2 dog if he has top set and the nut flush draw.
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Old 09-04-2009, 02:19 AM   #137
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

UTG runs 33/17 with a huge 4bet %.. is this okay or should i just fold preflop if I expect him to 4bet a lot?

$1/$2 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($228.50)
CO ($119.50)
Hero (BTN) ($242.25)
SB ($40.95)
BB ($195.00)

Pre-flop: ($3, 5 players) Hero is BTN K 9 A T
UTG raises to $6, CO raises to $21, Hero calls $21, 2 folds, UTG raises to $87, CO raises to $119.50, $98.50 to Hero ($221.25)?
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Old 09-04-2009, 02:36 AM   #138
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doorbread View Post
^^Wat? If you don't wanna raise the flop with this hand I seriously doubt you're calling so you can do some fancy float turn shove semi-bluff and think that in game you'd be much more likely to just flat and hope. This is a 3-bet pot and you gain a lot from getting him to fold ax 67 etc etc and even if he doesn't fold we're generally still fist pumping. To give you some perspective, we're less than a 3;2 dog if he has top set and the nut flush draw.
Yeah, raising is fine, particularly if this opponent 3-bets wide, I'm just saying that when he does call a big raise we're probably going to be behind his range, mainly because although we have a huge draw, we don't have that many nut outs. Easy shove OOP, but playing in position there's a TON of value to be had by possibly winning a $70+ bet on the turn or river, say when we make a straight and he calls with top set, putting us on whiffed spades, rather than just his $12 c-bet + the $8 or so of the main pot that's his.
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:47 AM   #139
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2+2=5 View Post
yeah i obv cant's fold, i just posted to ask it there any merits to calling flop? of shoving is way better?
just shove

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker monkey View Post
I'm just saying that when he does call a big raise we're probably going to be behind his range, mainly because although we have a huge draw, we don't have that many nut outs.
false. We shove the flop because we will get most money in the pot good this way. We have few nut outs and little reason to look for a turn we can get it in for pure value or fold on. However, we have SO MANY outs that HU we can't possibly be a huge dog except versus the sickest cooler (AsA9s8 or JsT9s8 etc.) and not shoving for value is just MUBS. WE ARE A FAVOURITE OVER A RANDOM TOP SET, and given the pot size if he could overbet shove with top-set and the NFD we couldn't fold anyway unless we were super super sick deep, and even then we have a pretty solid bluff-catcher.

Code:
board: Ad6s7s
Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
5s4s9d8h	55.76%	333,197	2,715
AA**	44.24%	264,088	2,715

board: Ad6s7s
Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
5s4s9d8h	42.14%	251,292	3,101
AsA*s*	57.86%	345,607	3,101

board: Ad6s7s
Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
5s4s9d8h	30.70%	134,365	99,715
AsA8s9	69.30%	365,920	99,715

board: Ad6s7s
Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
5s4s9d8h	30.34%	127,950	108,165
JsT8s9	69.66%	363,885	108,165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker monkey View Post
The trouble with shoving is that you only really get action the times you're not in good shape... I mean are you just raising to try to get him to fold a random Ace? Or a better flush draw with no pair? This case is fairly unusual because your draw is so huge you're probably about 70% to hit a straight or flush by the river, so you could almost slow-play it. I guess what I'm saying is your hand has so much value you don't really need to fold out the "air" part of his range with a raise (you can do that on a later street anyway). And you've got position to play with. I'm all for playing draws aggressively, but in this case the ace on the board changes things a bit.
False. He is never folding top set this shallow.
False. We cannot slow-play this hand. You tend to slow-play when there are very few turn cards that change the relative value of your hand; half the deck sucks for us here and we have no idea how to interpret a . In PLO, the only time you can "slow-play" is when you have a hand like KKxx on a K83r flop - you'd get action on the flop from AAxx and all other hands have basically no outs versus to overtake you on the turn.
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Old 09-04-2009, 04:35 AM   #140
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by zolih View Post
standard bluff? [...]

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is CO 5 6 A 9
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: 5 J Q ($8.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, BTN calls $7

Turn: T ($22.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $20, BTN calls $20

River: 9 ($62.50, 2 players)
[color="#cc0000"]Hero bets $48
I don't know if any 3/4 river bluffs are standard but I like this. You can't let this get checked through and lose to something like J9. I think a lot of the time you will be bluffing with the best hand though.
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Old 09-04-2009, 04:38 AM   #141
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by zolih View Post
standard bluff? just sat down 5hand ago. hud says 40/20/2 but only 14 hands.
the only hand I worry about is KQ KT

$0.5/$1 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
FullTiltPoker
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($38.50)
UTG+1 ($261.10)
Hero (CO) ($100.00)
BTN ($194.35)
SB ($81.85)
BB ($100.00)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 6 players) Hero is CO 5 6 A 9
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: 5 J Q ($8.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, BTN calls $7

Turn: T ($22.50, 2 players)
Hero bets $20, BTN calls $20

River: 9 ($62.50, 2 players)
[color="#cc0000"]Hero bets $48
nooooooooooooooooooo
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:29 AM   #142
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

thx for replies guys. he had top set +nfd obv
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:05 PM   #143
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Sorry if this is getting off-topic for a quick check-up thread, but it's an interesting hand. If we had a read that told us that he had random AA there 100% of the time, so we're a 56-44 favourite and he's obviously trying to get it in on the flop, which do you think is more +EV, raising or flatting?

What if we're a 50.1-49.9 favourite? Or a 49-51 dog?

What if we're 500bb deep?

What I'm suggesting is that when you have position, your implied odds on later streets can be more valuable than pressing small edges on the flop.

When I suggested "slowplaying", it's not because we have a huge equity advantage or anything, but it's like a situation on the river where say you have the second nuts, you're obviously smashing his range, but there's often not a lot of point in raising because you're only getting called by better. Similar situation here.
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:57 PM   #144
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poker monkey View Post
Sorry if this is getting off-topic for a quick check-up thread, but it's an interesting hand. If we had a read that told us that he had random AA there 100% of the time, so we're a 56-44 favourite and he's obviously trying to get it in on the flop, which do you think is more +EV, raising or flatting?

What if we're a 50.1-49.9 favourite? Or a 49-51 dog?

What if we're 500bb deep?

What I'm suggesting is that when you have position, your implied odds on later streets can be more valuable than pressing small edges on the flop.

When I suggested "slowplaying", it's not because we have a huge equity advantage or anything, but it's like a situation on the river where say you have the second nuts, you're obviously smashing his range, but there's often not a lot of point in raising because you're only getting called by better. Similar situation here.

I see what you are saying, but in this spot we only really have RIO on later streets.

Flush card comes - non-flush hands are mucking, bigger flushes take our monies.
Straightening card come - I doubt it an extra two-pair or a small set will pay us off.
Brick falls off - all these made hands go way up in value versus our draw-only hand, which is bad because we don't want to put money in the pot now and will probably get bet into on the turn.

For our implied odds to be positive we need to either:
a) Get more action from a wider range of hands when we hit a gin card; or
b) Play for a larger pot against the same range when we have an equity edge.

We won't get more action from worse hands by flatting the flop raise. He probably won't fold any set on this flop and he's committed with pretty much any straight or flush draw (and the pot is large enough that we simply want him to fold any straight draw anyway). The weak straight draws that he isn't committed with now are only going to put in more chips when we both hit on the turn and then the only good that comes is that we have a small freeroll for the flush draw (which we might lose anyway); this is more than compensated for by the times he folds the flop to our re-raise and we win the pot there and then.

We aren't deep enough to win a larger pot because we are looking at all-in/pot commitment already. If there were at least 3 more large bets left in our stacks I can see arguments for flatting and trying to get one large bet in on the turn (or checking through if a bad card comes), and evaluating our options on the river based on what falls off.
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:34 PM   #145
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

cowl? villian seems decent.

Poker Stars $200+$15 Pot Limit Omaha Hi Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: t5040 M = 84
SB: t6715 M = 111.92
BB: t1690 M = 28.17
Hero (UTG): t9450 M = 157.50
MP: t7170 M = 119.50
CO: t5365 M = 89.42

Pre Flop: (t60) Hero is UTG with A 7 5 T
Hero calls t40, MP calls t40, 1 fold, BTN calls t40, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t180) 7 3 4 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t125, MP calls t125, BTN folds, BB folds

Turn: (t430) A (2 players)
Hero bets t300, MP calls t300

River: (t1030) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t545, Hero
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:38 PM   #146
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2+2=5 View Post
cowl? villian seems decent.

Poker Stars $200+$15 Pot Limit Omaha Hi Tournament - t20/t40 Blinds - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BTN: t5040 M = 84
SB: t6715 M = 111.92
BB: t1690 M = 28.17
Hero (UTG): t9450 M = 157.50
MP: t7170 M = 119.50
CO: t5365 M = 89.42

Pre Flop: (t60) Hero is UTG with A 7 5 T
Hero calls t40, MP calls t40, 1 fold, BTN calls t40, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (t180) 7 3 4 (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t125, MP calls t125, BTN folds, BB folds

Turn: (t430) A (2 players)
Hero bets t300, MP calls t300

River: (t1030) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets t545, Hero
Your getting pretty good odds and you'll get a good read & table image, whatever he shows up with. I call, but he has xx52 here most of the time.

If he has a set or top-two, well, it's time to start check-raising rivers imo.
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Old 09-04-2009, 03:44 PM   #147
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

^^^ thx
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:08 PM   #148
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

You could even turn your hand into a bluff on this river with a check-raise, cos he can't call and your line is perfectly consistent with 65 (except you should have potted the turn). Cheaper just to pot turn and half-pot river though.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:12 PM   #149
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

lonely_squirrel , Doorbread,Spurious thanks the responses!

but in this case turn semibluff sucks too?
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Old 09-05-2009, 12:29 AM   #150
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Re: *~* Quick Checkup Thread - PLO flavour *~*

figured this is the place for it.. if the only other player at a 6max table who is decent is on your left, but you have been playing him really well in the current positions and a seat opens up 2 to his left, do you get up and switch? eff stacks are 200bb if it makes a difference.
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