In poker I try to rarely use the words "always" and "never" as a way of describing an approach to a situation. I get what you mean - what is the point of raising if you won't get any fold equity? But you can look at different situations in different ways. As I said in another post, you can make a first raise to use someone with a high 3 bet % to get a big 4 bet in and therefore reduce the size of the field dramatically.

Also, if there is a low likelihood of a 3 bet, you might just want to build a pot with a hand that has a lot of board coverage like a mid-high rundown.

I like to build pots with all my good hands and keep pots small with the more speculative hands.

I rarely 3bet because I rarely expect anything less than multiway action. These games are only tough to beat while running bad or beating yourself by bluffing, or getting tricky or overplaying your hands.

Preflop just play as many hands in position as you can for as cheap as you can. Folding the absolute garbage like k972 . And then punish people post flop that play worse cards and are worse players.

Super fun games and I feel lucky to get to play in these sometimes.

Position is important so I rarely raise when I will be in early position preflop. My most likely preflop raising position is the HJ and CO where I am trying to effectively buy the button for the flop.

I like playing multi-way so I generally don't try to narrow the field.

In games that are very loose preflop, your hand selection preflop matters a lot more. K high flush hands have a lot less value when your opponents will never fold AX of that suit no matter what their other two cards are or the action preflop.

Basically, you want to trim your preflop hands to hands that can make the nuts. A high flush hands, rundowns, and big connected pairs (KKQJ, etc) are the best hands to play. Hands that seem decent like J976ds are much less valuable since the multiway pots will rarely be won by a 9 high flush or a bluff.

Weak AAxx should not be 3-bet preflop (or even raised) in situations where you can't narrow the field preflop since it just doesn't make many great hands postflop.

I would tend to limp every hand I decide to play when in early position in a game like this since position is much more important in PLO and you can't narrow the field.

I don't think you need to abandon bluffing at all in a game like this, you just have to do it in position when others have telegraphed that they don't have the nuts and you at least have some relevant blockers and equity when called.

Yeah this is pretty close to how I play. I also almost never 3 bet OOP because it doesn't work. Like live 1/3, 4 limps, btn makes it 25, SB calls, I make it 115 and 3 of the 4 limpers call along w/ the other two, and now suddenly we have nearly $700 in the middle and I'll never get to see a turn card if my opponents dictate this to be the case. Obviously this is different than how I play online where a SB 3 bet could clean a limper up and get value while ahead of the isolater.

I also will play any KK in position since it still maintains very good set value, and obviously the chance to raise an 88 on a K87 board to get his low equity hand to call and high equity hands behind to fold is very nice.

I may consider adding some LRR to my EP range, like when I'm dealt some equity hog hand like AKJ9ds.

AKA nut peddling.

In some respects, yes, but it's more the point that when we make the nuts or the nut draw, we want to have the types of hands that have redraws, not the types that are being freerolled.

This is not as relevant in tighter games since there's more bluff value and the chance of having nuts vs nuts is much less with fewer people seeing the flop.

There's nothing wrong with being a nut peddler.

OTOH if your opponents are going to the flop with on average superior holdings, then the chance of being on the wrong side of the freeroll or the cooler increases if you are playing too loose.

Good point, but I think I'd still wager that being up against 7 bad hands with the nuts + no redraw is worse than being up against 2 good hands. I could be wrong though.

I played on Thursday in my local game. 50c/1 euro blinds. We played five handed. Let's say I was seat 5, the other guys (all businessmen - nicknames loosely related to their businesses):

VPIP / PFR / 3bet+

Seat 1 (Animal). 85/8/0
Seat 2 (Pieman). 95/15/5
Seat 3 (Bayleaf). 100/12/2
Seat 4 (Deep). 100/2/0

Three sample hands:

Hand A: I am in the big blind with Q332 - suits irrelevant. Limped pot 5 ways. I would fold this if I even had to put in 50c voluntarily. Flop: (€5) T63. SB check I pot. Pieman, Bayleaf and Deep all call. Turn: (€25) is a 6. Checked to Pieman who bets, we all call. River 2 is checked around. Pieman takes it down with K862 - no flopped flush draw or back door flush draw! I think he checked river to induce a bet from Bayleaf who he probably thought had a good chance of having made a straight.

Hand B: I am on the button with KJ97r. Maybe I get a bit out of line here... Bayleaf has posted a €2 straddle. Everyone limps around to Bayleaf who raised to 10 euros. Deep calls, I 3bet to 40. Animal and Pieman fold, Bayleaf and Deep call. I have 52 euros back. Flop: K84r it is checked to me and I shove. Only Bayleaf calls, with QQxx and he doesn't improve and I take it down. I like to play this hand in position but it does a lot better in a small field because of the lack of suits. Bayleaf will make his initial raise with any TTxx+ and I think he will only 4bet AAxx. I have never seen him play wrap hands aggressively pre flop so I don't expect him to have a rundown that dominates me. Deep is in the hand but he could have anything except trips in his starting hand.

Hand C: three hands after hand B, I am UTG with AAJJr. I pot (3.50). Animal folds, Pieman 3bets to €10. Bayleaf calls, Deep calls. I 4bet to €50. Pieman and Bayleaf both call, Deep folds. I have 160 behind, Pieman has the same, Bayleaf has about 80. Flop (€160) KJ8r. Bayleaf checks, I shove, they both fold.

I included hand A just to show how loose the game plays when pots are small. Hand C shows how using an aggro player behind you can mean open raising with hands that you want to get other players out with can help achieve that objective: if I had limped AAJJ we would have gone to the flop at least 4 handed whatever Pieman and me did afterwards.

this is great thread and subject

like OP says in his first post, live PLO feels like a different game

i dont hear from/about many live PLO grinders, i wonder how many there are. Live PLO seems like could be exxtremely profitable

The thing that's definitely frustrating for the attempted live PLO grinder is this ultra loose play. Like it's easy to exploit guys in NL. 4 limps to you and you have a strong starting hands in late position? Size it up big. See if you can get it down to HU or 3 way while you're at it. Then, that person who continues will define their range a fair amount, which makes value betting postflop easier. Like you go 5 ways with QQ and you have no idea where you're at when the flop comes T66. Someone limps and calls a big raise, that removes a lot of 6x from their range, so you can go for big value on the turn 4.

OTOH, Morton's Theorem and fish schooling is a big deal in PLO. Yes, when you play 20% of hands, you'll make money against people playing 80% of hands, but when 7 of your 9 opponents are in the pot w/ an 80% range, your exploits are limited mostly to your hot/cold equity (which is still good, but not great). Then on any flop that doesn't give you a strong hand or a strong draw, you have to assume someone else has a strong hand or a strong draw, because ranges are so badly defined. Like you have AATx and the flop comes T44r? Looks like a good flop. But there's a 13.73% chance that none of the other 7 players have a 4. That doesn't even count that even w/ the T, they can have TT sometimes. So if you can't value bet this board, you can't value bet many.

So clearly preflop, we should favor hands that can make a strong hand or strong draw on the first 3 cards. That way we can actually realize our preflop equity edge.

You don't have to "exploit" people, in the way you're describing, to make money. The exploit is simply the fact that you're playing better hands. Sure, there's a ton of variance, but you don't have to do anything special to gain an edge, you just play nutty hands and take your shots with them.

Just wanted to revive this after searching for info on limping ranges. So I generally limp or overlimp hands I would fold if 3! like KK or QQ, 9988T, A5678. I raise anything I would call a 3! with like good ss/ds rundowns, and obviously any AA (which I am often re-potting if I get 3!). Is this a decent starting point for live 5-card?

I ask because last night I went against this strat and opened KKQ9xss and got 3! squeezed after several callers in between and had to fold. (Interestingly, squeezer/V was an action player and he ended up having AQQxx. Should I just be GII with KK against this player type?)

I mostly agree with BDHarrison when he says we should limp most of our hands when players are making big mistakes post.
And I would fold your KKQ9X

In 5 card Omaha hi, I wouldn’t oppose a limp 100% strat from EP. my guess is that everyone will be playing way too many hands and our hand is worthless without hitting the flop.


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