UTG: $1,157.38 (231 bb)
MP: $1,979.91 (396 bb)
CO (Hero): $1,479.50 (296 bb)
BU: $1,800.29 (360 bb)
SB: $500.00 (100 bb)
BB: $507.50 (102 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($7.50) Hero is CO with 8♣ J♥ 3♣ 2♥
2 players fold, Hero raises to $17.50, BTN calls $17.50, SB calls $15, BB 3-bets to $87.50, Hero calls $70, BTN calls $70, 1 fold

Flop: ($280) K♣ T♣ 2♦ (3 players)
BB bets $277, Hero calls $277, BTN calls $277

Turn: ($1,111) 7♥ (3 players)
BB bets $143 (all-in), Hero calls $143, BTN calls $143

River: ($1,540) 3♠ (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, BTN checks

both vill are solid regs
btn (vp41/pfr26/3b12) has a cold call otb of 12
bb (vp58/pfr40/3b17) has a bb 3b vs co of 11 and his overall squeeze is 12

idk if this is an open pre but i do think its a fold to the 3b because it doesnt play well multiway and if i call then its almost always going multiway to the flop. also im deep and oop vs btn which probably puts me in bad spots post flop (noticed that once i was facing the cbet otf). so yea, didnt really know what to do post flop but this could probably all be avoided if i had just made a fold somewhere pf

fold pre. this is a very weak hand. basically double suited trash. it's an open from the button but not the co.

flop is a pretty obvious fold as well. three way very easy for you to have almost no equity.

totally agree

fold pre, fold to 3b, fold flop

spend a few buy-ins and read a few plo books or watch some videos instead lol

The whole hand is massive spew.

How do people get to 500 by playing hands these ways?
The whole hand is just ugly.

Besides fold pre, not really much else you can do postflop

I am new to PLO so this hand and the comments were instructive. Thanks

Fold pre is clear thing here , and not much you can do post flop with the hand..

Yeah folding pre (initially) is correct but at worst it’s just a minor mistake, maybe a dollar or two in -EV or so. Facing the 3bet it’s pretty tricky. We have a double-suited hand in position in a likely multi-way pot so can’t fault a call at all. Flop is also actually a bit tricky because of being deep with the player behind. Calling is very awkward if we get shoved on behind since we’ll be getting around 30% having a flush draw and pair. Even if we just face a call behind we’re almost certainly going to have an awkward turn spot. On a blank there’s very little value in semibluffing with a player effectively allin, but check-folding with that much equity is gross. So I think you can make the case that there’s no good way to realize flop equity and we just have to fold, but if our opponent behind is tight enough, we can just call knowing there’s a good chance it just gets checked down. Also don’t want to entirely rule out the possible of a, lol, shove on flop. Instead of being at the mercy of the button we make him feel sick with anything but top set and monster nutted draws. It’s mainly just a math problem. If we feel folding > calling due to equity realization problems, we still have to be sure folding > shoving. Obviously sticking 3 buyins in with ****ty flush draw and pair is extremely uncomfortable but that’s just something you have to do in PLO sometimes and doesn’t really have anything to do with a $2 preflop mistake.

This line of thnking is what keeps people making the same mistake over again. In isolation it may only be a small mistake but these things add up - both in pre-flop play of similar -ev situations and in post-flop play once we get to the flop with such a bad hand.

At least OP acknowledged whilst posting that it was a bad situation to get in. Because yeah; calling the 3b is definitely bad and burning way more than a couple of dollar in EV.

No it doesn’t because I’m not advocating actually making the mistake...

No, flop is an entirely different decision point. We can avoid these types of flops more by of course just folding pre more but that’s just cutting down on variance not saving ourself EV. You see the same type of lazy posting when people screech at someone for 3betting dry aces and then just act like whatever else happened in the hand doesn’t matter. Your doing this is especially comical though since this hand is much deeper and more interesting than average and the thread has shown some significant disagreement. You have people saying “the whole hand is a massive spew” and others saying our play is automatic postlflop. I wrote a paragraph explaining why I think it’s close between all three options on flop. But instead of adressing any of that you want to go back to preflop and complain that I’m not saying it’s wrong hard enough or something.

i dunno how to quantify like u did, but both preflop raise and calling the squeeze are mistakes, and feel like much worse than a $2 mistake.

especially deep stack you really don't want to draw to a 8 high flush, or stack off with middling two pair. your hand makes exactly two nut straights.

please. dont do this.

Regardless of not advocating it; by trivialising it as a small mistake, OP WILL make the same mistake hundreds of more times.

Everyone is guilty of this in various aspects of life - we will do something if we think its only a small mistake if we are not 100% in the right mindset. Some people drink + drive because they think it's only a small mistake - they think the chance of anything bad happening is so small that the convenience outweighs the risk. If you get them to think it's a huge mistake by advertising the dangers of it etc... then they are far less likely to do it.

In poker if you are playing your A game you will fold. But if you are below your A game you might think "it's OK, I can outplay these guys post-flop, small mistake is irrelevant" Or if you are even tilting ever so slightly you might just think w/e it's fine despite you knowing/thinking it's only a small mistake.

But if you know that it's actually a big mistake and not small then you can avoid making these mistakes even if you feel a bit on tilt or you are just not playing your A game.

[QUOTE=NMcNasty;54509597] My point was that pre-flop mistakes get compounded by post-flop mistakes if a hand is difficult to play. If a GTO perfect bot played the hand post-flop he might lose the minimum expected (ie. the amount we lost pre-flop) - or a couple of $. But an average (or even a good) PLO player is going to compound the mistakes of pf just because of how incredibly difficult it will be to play OOP AND V DEEP.

ie. It's a lot more than a couple of $ev lost.

If a post-flop decision is close then the ev is likely to be similar. So whilst it seems more interesting, it's not the part you should be focused on in terms of improving.

Its a double-suited hand from steal position, raising is marginally bad at absolute worst. Your marginally bad hands will always have a -EV of a fraction of the BB, which is something you can average/estimate by looking at hand data over large samples. If you want to pound your fists on the table and assert that its a $3 mistake instead of a $2 mistake, fine, your opinion is noted. Higher than that though and you're just clueless when it comes to preflop equities.

I prefer just to just approach strategy clearly and directly rather than play psychological games with myself or people I'm coaching. I don't feel any obligation to scare 2+2 readers into making decisions, IMO "don't do X" is enough. My larger point though isn't that we should ignore marginal preflop decisions, its that postflop is being ignored (not just trivialized, completely ignored) because of over-attention to preflop.

Its more unclear than close. I think the difference in EVs between the actual correct decision and the next best one is significantly more than a few dollars. Flop plan is at least 10x more important than preflop IMO.

Mcnasty a coach, you heard it here first

Nah, free family/friend coaching. But funny to me that you think its a joke otherwise.

: peter :

mcnasty said i suck at preflop, you heard it here first

You’re good at trolling though. Just enough seriousness in your posts to bait people into responding. But then just the retreat back to sarcasm.