Hello everyone,

Getting back into PLO after some time, I've heard conflicting advice about this hand and I thought it could be interesting to discuss it here.

PokerStars - $0.25 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 75.6 BB (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 14.58, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 49)
SB: 159.84 BB (VPIP: 21.82, PFR: 16.36, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)
BB: 322.8 BB (VPIP: 23.19, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 141)
Hero (UTG): 250.76 BB
MP: 264.08 BB (VPIP: 22.43, PFR: 13.75, 3Bet Preflop: 2.67, Hands: 2,196)
CO: 710.52 BB (VPIP: 26.11, PFR: 16.56, 3Bet Preflop: 5.08, Hands: 157)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8 T K 6

Hero raises to 3.4 BB, MP calls 3.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 14 BB, Hero calls 10.6 BB, MP calls 10.6 BB

Flop: (42.4 BB, 3 players) 4 5 Q
BB bets 20.32 BB, Hero calls 20.32 BB, MP calls 20.32 BB

Turn: (103.36 BB, 3 players) 9
BB bets 65.96 BB, Hero ?

I believe BB has AAxx a lot of the time but it annoys me that we have someone behind us and that we're still 200bb in, what do you guys think ?

Fold seems weak but at the same time we're not closing action but once we float flop this is one of the best card we hoped for. Call could be okay but MP shoving behind us would really put us in a bad spot. Raise looks like spew but it could get MP to fold some hands that have good equity againsts us. Thoughts ?

I'm interested in turn discussion although I've heard diverging opinions on pf and flop, I think both are debatable/fine. Hero image is LAG/active.

Opinions would be much appreciated

fold pre and it wont annoy you that theres someone behind you

AP there is not a decision, get the money in the center

if you dont know what to do here, fold pre

I would fold the flop and as played also fold the turn

I would be extremely cautious viewing the 9h as a good turn card given the action, in close to best case scenarios hero is drawing to 12 outs and may be able to bluff river at some frequency (moreso if mp folds)

Also since I expect to have no fold equity (bb bet folding after putting in ~ 100bb would seem pretty awful) I do not think shoving is a good option


I also think both the initial pre-flop raise and flop call are both quite bad though I am much more sympathetic to the float given how deep everyone is - I would expect opinions on this to be fairly universal and not 'debateable'

May I ask why are the pf raise and call both bad ? I certainly agree that it is marginal and UTG it's loose but even if we dont draw to the nuts I think it's good when we're fairly sure 3btor as AA and we have position.

Why fold flop ? Given the flop bet, we only need 25%, with all our backdoors and position you don't think it's worth it ?

I also think it's close on turn and probably merits a call or raise, not sure what is optimal though !

Hero's hand would not be an open at 100bb normally but it becomes more expensive as stacks get deeper, the flaws in the hand (double gap on top and 2 1-gap lower..) are magnified

The presence of a 75 bb stack (and less importantly a 150bb stack) create additional adverse effects on playability and profitability in multiway pots

After hero raises calling the 3! Is fine

Some of the reasoning involved in me not calling the flop are:

What I think villain's 3! And lead range are. For instance, a lot of aaxx or kkxx or qxxx hands that barrel the flop are going to block and dominate our redraws.

Implied odds on hitting the gutshot.

Having a player behind (who may also raise)

What hero's range looks like after flatting the flop. Hero is likely to have lots of weak and medium strength hands on flop so villains should be able to play and plan for the turn with confidence.

I think we all agree preflop is clear fold. Having player behind you to act,this hand is too

weak to float initial raiser on flop.If MP had any strong hand I think he would be likely to raise flop,so wouldn`t worry about him on turn. Main problem is bb.Is he really betting

turn with dry aces?I would prefer to fold here,as it`s very likely you are drawing very slim.

Yeah, dicey flop call
Literally almost the best non-7 turn for your hand and it's still a pretty tough spot

This deep preflop, I think you have to tighten up your opening range a fair bit, and this would be one of the hands I would drop. Versatile, but non-nutty. On the flop, if I'm continuing, I'd rather bluff raise than float. As played, I'd just fold the turn. That 9 hits your range a bit, and mp's range even more, and bb still fires 2/3 into two people. If he does have AA, he likely has hearts and is blocking some of your straight outs.

Table select more mate. Terribly nitty stats on everyone

Ha,ha just noticed that now.Pure nit fest.

Thank you all for the comments, see below for the results of the hand :

PokerStars - $0.25 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 75.6 BB (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 14.58, 3Bet Preflop: 4.17, Hands: 49)
SB: 159.84 BB (VPIP: 21.82, PFR: 16.36, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 58)
BB: 322.8 BB (VPIP: 23.19, PFR: 13.04, 3Bet Preflop: 6.90, Hands: 141)
Hero (UTG): 250.76 BB
MP: 264.08 BB (VPIP: 22.43, PFR: 13.75, 3Bet Preflop: 2.67, Hands: 2,196)
CO: 710.52 BB (VPIP: 26.11, PFR: 16.56, 3Bet Preflop: 5.08, Hands: 157)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8 T K 6

Hero raises to 3.4 BB, MP calls 3.4 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB raises to 14 BB, Hero calls 10.6 BB, MP calls 10.6 BB

Flop: (42.4 BB, 3 players) 4 5 Q
BB bets 20.32 BB, Hero calls 20.32 BB, MP calls 20.32 BB

Turn: (103.36 BB, 3 players) 9
BB bets 65.96 BB, fold, MP raises to 229.76 BB and is all-in, BB calls 163.8 BB

River: (562.88 BB, 2 players) A

BB shows 2 A A 3 (Straight, Five High)
(Pre 55%, Flop 70%, Turn 47%)
MP shows 8 J Q 9 (Two Pair, Queens and Nines)
(Pre 45%, Flop 30%, Turn 53%)
BB wins 554.88 BB

PF : I was barely favorite at 34% with both of them at 33%. I agree it's loose but I dont agree with the comment that said we need to tighten up once we get deeper, I think the opposite is true.

Flop : BB is a huge favorite at 50% with us at 28% and MP behind at 22% but with BB's bet, we need to have 25% to call. Given that, is it wrong to float ? Flop is pretty dry and we're still deep, I doubt MP would raise much.

Turn : We are actually ahead at 39% ! BB has 33% and MP 28%. I realize that BB's hand is towards the bottom of his range but I think a call would be good.

Anyone's thoughts have changed given the hand odds ?

Now that we know results, I guess it's not so bad to GII ott if we put BB exactly on AA23!h and MP on QJ89!h

I think it`s important not to be result oriented when you see opponent`s actual

hand,and to think is your hand good vs range,not vs particular hand.My thoughts were

that BB was not betting with dry aces,and mp call on flop is weak,which was both the

case.I still do not like floating with this hand 3way and both players played this standard i think.

I would only prefer to bet at least 75% with aa23 on q45 against 2 players instead of 50%.

check raise or muck flop

Some of your pre-flop reasoning still remains very suspect, i think you are underestimating the importance of position and influence of shorter stacks - its not nearly as simple as play tighter because you are deeper - note the increased difficulty of your decision on the turn because the extra pressure created by third player

Also - I think your equity-approach to calling the flop is also faulty - even if you meet a 25% equity threshold you still only have 4 premier outs on turn that massively increase your equity to the point you are a likely favorite - realizing backdoor equity is important but you will be spending heavily to realize it and still have a hard time evaluating whether your hand is good when you runner runner a flush for instance

Moreover, 25% may not even be enough once you factor in the chance that additional action may make you fold

Finally, I will note that bb could have played this hand quite differently on both the flop and turn (and if he is balanced he will not play it the same way everytime) - I think leading the turn is often not the best line

Fold pre, hand isn't nutted and not connected enough.

goodness
fold pre, you're on UTG not on CO ffs

Its zoom bro

Yeah fold at every point.

Fold pre. KT86ds is not a hand I want to play UTG in almost any circumstance. This deep it's hard for us to make the nuts. I'd play AT86ds though, so pre isn't so bad. Once I make the raise pre, I'm almost never folding to a 3-bet this deep.

Flop is an easy fold. I don't like floating multi-ways since if MP raises we have to fold and if MP calls we're going to have trouble taking it down OOP to him on good turn cards.

I probably call turn. We're now strong enough to call if MP raises, and we can have a ton of outs. that said think it's a mistake to even get to the turn.

Having looked at results, I don't think it changes my view of the world that this is a fold pre and fold flop. You didn't necessarily run into the bottom of anyone's range, but you're lucky to be running in to two hands that don't dominate you at all. No one happens to have bigger hearts, bigger spades, K with a better kicker, a dominating rundown (like KQJT) or something similar. On the flop, it just so happens no one has a 7 in their hand, or a set that could eat into your outs. Even then, on the flop you're in a spot where you are just getting odds to call based on hot and cold equity, but you're out of position in a multi-way pot with a hand that has 4 outs to the nuts and a lot of hard turn cards, so hard to realize your equity.