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Small Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 1/2 and below pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 07-02-2021, 11:31 PM   #1
Merv303
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PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Hi all.

Been playing online for years (to very little success), and for about the last two I've been playing PLO on ignition. After a few false dawns, I feel I have started to get things right.

I normally add on for $50 Australian (about $37.50 American - overall I have put in about $300 Aus / $225 USD on ignition). From my last add on, I have run it up to currently $210 USD.

In saying that, I have been on a bit of downswing lately. I was above $300 USD 4 to 6 weeks ago before dropping about $80. Over the last 3-5 weeks I keep swinging between $210 and $250.

Being open and honest, I have times that I tilt off a buy in or three when an opponent plays (or maybe what I perceive to be) a really crappy starting hand and flops / rivers it. I do enjoy a beer too, which sometimes has led to some very poor play (and the loss of a few buy ins during a session).

I currently play .05/.10 level PLO 6 handed. I usually buy in for 50bb ($5), and rebuy for either 50bb or 100bb ($10) if the game is juicy / rather laggy.

Overall, I am looking for some support and feedback. If people are happy for me to do so, I am happy to post bankroll size, hands, general thoughts as a bit of an online diary. Again, I am seek peoples thoughts as a means of critiquing the way I play.

I will post a number of hands, sometimes asking betsizing questions and other times looking at more general advice (ie how to handle certain opponents / hand ranges).

To kick things off;
Question 1.
What do people think of the Ignition cash games for PLO?

I find the lower limits soft, if but a little frustrating. I'm not sure if there is much of a difference between .02/.05 and the .05/.10 games.

Question 2.
What do people typically buy in for; the 30bb, 100bb or something in between? What are the main influences of your buy in level (your aggression level, the normal aggression level of the games, etc)?

Question 3.
I only want to move up in levels via making profit at the tables (as opposed to constantly transferring money onto the site). I feel this means that I have to constantly make profit and play well before moving up (and thereby have crafted my still before rushing it at a higher level).

In terms of bankroll, what do you see as being a good amount to have before you move up levels? For example, is it good have have 30 buy ins, 40 buy ins, etc., at the higher level before moving up.

At the moment, I do play .05/.10 - the next level is .10/.25. If I was to play with 50bb per buy ($12.50), what would you recommend as a total bankroll before I move up?

Question 4.
Are there any really good online sites (training or otherwise) to use? Currently I just use a PLO calculator to review select hands. I do this as a means to check how certain hands run out.
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Old 07-03-2021, 02:26 AM   #2
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Quote:
What do people think of the Ignition cash games for PLO?
They are pretty good overall, although it is still worth table selecting.

Quote:
What do people typically buy in for; the 30bb, 100bb or something in between? What are the main influences of your buy in level (your aggression level, the normal aggression level of the games, etc)?
Generally I will buy in for 100 bb, although if you want to be a perfectionist you can buyin for the min and then top up if the game is good and you have position on any maniacs and quit if the game is bad.
Quote:
In terms of bankroll, what do you see as being a good amount to have before you move up levels? For example, is it good have have 30 buy ins, 40 buy ins, etc., at the higher level before moving up.
There is no answer really, it is a question of your skill level, your risk tolerance, your ability to reload, with most of the factors being impossible to quantify. Especially because you are drinking and occasionally tilting you might be better off just sticking to PLO $10. On the other hand moving up and playing for higher stakes and winning more money is fun too.

Quote:
Are there any really good online sites (training or otherwise) to use? Currently I just use a PLO calculator to review select hands. I do this as a means to check how certain hands run out.
There are a few products on the market, not much really that would be worthwhile for a strictly PLO $10 player. For example, there are some GTO trainers, great stuff but they cost like 170 aud for a month. RIO essential might be a reasonable place to start, it is only $25 / month and you can probably get some value from the PLO videos they have.


The forum and the HS PLO forum is a valuable resource as well. The SSPLO forum has 30,000 + old threads you can go back and read and get ideas on how to play.
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Old 07-04-2021, 01:53 AM   #3
Merv303
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
They are pretty good overall, although it is still worth table selecting.



Generally I will buy in for 100 bb, although if you want to be a perfectionist you can buyin for the min and then top up if the game is good and you have position on any maniacs and quit if the game is bad.



There is no answer really, it is a question of your skill level, your risk tolerance, your ability to reload, with most of the factors being impossible to quantify. Especially because you are drinking and occasionally tilting you might be better off just sticking to PLO $10. On the other hand moving up and playing for higher stakes and winning more money is fun too.



There are a few products on the market, not much really that would be worthwhile for a strictly PLO $10 player. For example, there are some GTO trainers, great stuff but they cost like 170 aud for a month. RIO essential might be a reasonable place to start, it is only $25 / month and you can probably get some value from the PLO videos they have.


The forum and the HS PLO forum is a valuable resource as well. The SSPLO forum has 30,000 + old threads you can go back and read and get ideas on how to play.
thanks for the advice here. will go through the threads and take a look at RIO.

i want to be able to move up, and feel that building my bankroll steadily through being a winning player is the best way to go. it will help me iron out my flaws and my way of thinking.

i know there are the Jeff Hwang books from about 2010 too - are they still relevant / the best out there?

Last edited by Merv303; 07-04-2021 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 07-04-2021, 10:14 AM   #5
Jaewoo
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

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Originally Posted by Merv303 View Post
i know there are the Jeff Hwang books from about 2010 too - are they still relevant / the best out there?
If you can apply the concepts in Hwang's material you will be better than most PLO players you encounter.
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Old 07-04-2021, 09:12 PM   #6
Merv303
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

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Originally Posted by Jaewoo View Post
If you can apply the concepts in Hwang's material you will be better than most PLO players you encounter.
thank you so much for the replies!!! quite a few channels to subscribe to and watch

i remember reading some of Hwang's work a while back. just wasn't sure if the different books he wrote are still useful now.

in searching online, there also doesn't seem to be a lot of new books since - not sure if that's just because we have the training sites (and youtube channels) or if there are a few other drivers (changes in the poker scene, growth / decline in people playing poker, types of poker games being played, etc)
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Old 07-05-2021, 03:49 AM   #7
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

https://youtu.be/lvRBTxv9Kv4

https://youtu.be/OC1ejUgFcgU

https://youtu.be/PbDTI27uP4o
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Old 07-21-2021, 02:35 AM   #8
Merv303
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Hi all, its been a couple weeks. been up and down a bit (as high as $300 US), currently $246. i got done a bit earlier today from the following hand, and was frustrated after (losing the rest of my stack soon after).

I am looking for some perspective.

Is my line preflop is too passive and if my line on the flop play is the best way to play?

Hand
i'm sitting SB with with $10.48 at a PLO .05/.10 6max table.

PRE FLOP
UTG makes it $0.35 (started with $10.08), MP (started with $6.68) and CO (our villain – starts with $7.53) flat, BTN folds.

I have Ad Qd Js Th in SB.

I consider popping it, but being so much out of position for the rest of the hand I am worried the pot could get out of hand without having a massive hand yet. Recent experience has me sceptical in the worst starting position.

Decision 1: I call, and the BB folds.

FLOP: 3d Kd Qc (pot 1.39)

Well, i've hit a fairly solid flop for my hand (nut flush draw plus 4 different cards give me the nut straight). I think it can go either way; a check could induce a bet (particularly from the preflop raiser). That said, I have seen these checked around.

Decision 2: So I bet $1.04.

UTG folds, MP calls, and CO bets $5.71.

This screams something big. I have a Q, so unless they have the case Qs its probably Ks. That said I have nut flush draw, plus any A, J, T or 9 give me a nut straight.

So i'm asking myself if the move is to jam or flat. Since (a) my hand has a lot to gain from hitting one of my draws and (b) the fact the MP is still left, I question likelihood of the MP calling should I jam.

Decision 3: I eventually decide to call – hoping for a call from the MP. Sadly, they fold.

TURN: 7d [board is 3d Kd Qc 7d] Pot is $13.30 and CO has $1.47.

Decision 4: don't think it matters much here, money is getting in one way or the other. Given their flop jam, I really can't see how the villain would just check behind. I check, they jam, I call.

Turns out villain has As 6d 3c 3h.

RIVER: 7c [board is 3d Kd Qc 7d 7c] Villain wins $16.09.
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Old 07-21-2021, 06:43 AM   #9
anon1
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merv303 View Post
Hi all, its been a couple weeks. been up and down a bit (as high as $300 US), currently $246. i got done a bit earlier today from the following hand, and was frustrated after (losing the rest of my stack soon after).

I am looking for some perspective.

Is my line preflop is too passive and if my line on the flop play is the best way to play?

Hand
i'm sitting SB with with $10.48 at a PLO .05/.10 6max table.

PRE FLOP
UTG makes it $0.35 (started with $10.08), MP (started with $6.68) and CO (our villain starts with $7.53) flat, BTN folds.

I have Ad Qd Js Th in SB.

I consider popping it, but being so much out of position for the rest of the hand I am worried the pot could get out of hand without having a massive hand yet. Recent experience has me sceptical in the worst starting position.

Decision 1: I call, and the BB folds.

FLOP: 3d Kd Qc (pot 1.39)

Well, i've hit a fairly solid flop for my hand (nut flush draw plus 4 different cards give me the nut straight). I think it can go either way; a check could induce a bet (particularly from the preflop raiser). That said, I have seen these checked around.

Decision 2: So I bet $1.04.

UTG folds, MP calls, and CO bets $5.71.

This screams something big. I have a Q, so unless they have the case Qs its probably Ks. That said I have nut flush draw, plus any A, J, T or 9 give me a nut straight.

So i'm asking myself if the move is to jam or flat. Since (a) my hand has a lot to gain from hitting one of my draws and (b) the fact the MP is still left, I question likelihood of the MP calling should I jam.

Decision 3: I eventually decide to call hoping for a call from the MP. Sadly, they fold.

TURN: 7d [board is 3d Kd Qc 7d] Pot is $13.30 and CO has $1.47.

Decision 4: don't think it matters much here, money is getting in one way or the other. Given their flop jam, I really can't see how the villain would just check behind. I check, they jam, I call.

Turns out villain has As 6d 3c 3h.

RIVER: 7c [board is 3d Kd Qc 7d 7c] Villain wins $16.09.
My advice won't be worth a lot but here's how I see it:

You're in the SB with a premium hand and the hand you have needs to be 3-Bet.

If someone is 3-betting out of the SB, the expectation is very high that they will have AAxx,KKxx, among a variety of other premium holdings. What I'm getting at is when the flop is KQ3, it's easily possible that you flopped a set of kings or queens, in which case, the villain is faced with a set over set question. Does he want to get it all in with bottom set vs. a set of kings or queens?

Flop: You hit a wrap with the nut str8 and nfd. When the CO raises on the flop, he's made your job easier for you - get all the money in asap.

Post: You missed, villain boats. That's going to happen sometimes.
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Old 07-21-2021, 07:03 AM   #10
Kalaea
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Raise pre. You raise because you are OOP, lower PSR reduces positional disadvantage.
Flop: 'fairly good' is a huge understatement. You are a massive favourite over a set here. Run some sims and see by how much - you may be shocked at just how much equity you have here -21 outs, I think. Once CO bets, just shove - MP has to call either 5.70 or 6.30, so what you do will make no difference - in fact calling looks stronger than shoving.
This is Omaha - you got most of your money in (should have been all of) as a big favourite and lost. If losing this hand frustrates you you need to work on your mental game.
You also say you lost 'the rest of your stack' - don't play short stacked. If you lose most of your stack rebuy - you want to charge villains the maximum for their mistakes.
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Old 07-21-2021, 10:08 AM   #11
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Quote:
You are a massive favourite over a set here.

board: 3d Kd Qc
Hand Equity Wins Ties
Ad Qd Js Th 52.32% 1,120,987 10,293
KK . . . .. . . 47.68% 1,021,220 10,293
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Old 07-21-2021, 12:01 PM   #12
Kalaea
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Solid favourite then. You're a 7% edge against a random set, and 5% fav over the current nuts. Getting it in here is printing money - against a range of only sets that's 11bb.
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Old 07-21-2021, 12:51 PM   #13
PokerPlayingGamble
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

I believe the word "slight" is what you are looking for.
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Old 07-21-2021, 01:05 PM   #14
ladybruin
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merv303 View Post
I usually buy in for 50bb ($5), and rebuy for either 50bb or 100bb ($10) if the game is juicy / rather laggy.
This is the first issue you need to fix. 50bb and 100bb strategy both preflop and postflop are nothing alike. To get good at this game simplicity is your best bet. You need to start off learning one and only one buy in size. And if you want a long future with more opportunities across any poker site, then just learn 100bb.

Also although this is the small stakes sub-forum don't forget to also read the high stakes sub-forum. In the high stakes sub-forum I just covered my views on this stack size topic in the thread "where did you start."

Last edited by ladybruin; 07-21-2021 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 07-23-2021, 02:48 AM   #15
Merv303
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Re: PLO small stakes playing hoping to go big and looking for some feedback

Hi all, thanks for the feedback.

in terms of the post flop play, i knew as soon as i was raised by the CO that both our stacks were getting in. had we been heads up i certainly would have put the rest in.

what i find intriguing here is the fact the MP called by original open. hence i was really torn as what to do - call or jam. i felt that should i jam, it's really tough decision for the MP to call for the rest of their stack here - they are going to have to be on a really good draw.

after all they must have had something to call my bet in the first place.

then again, they are still putting in half their stack if i don't raise. i appreciate any thoughts of the best way to pull the opponent into the pot (or if the difference between the MP calling and folding is so small it doesn't matter what i do).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalaea View Post
Raise pre. You raise because you are OOP, lower PSR reduces positional disadvantage.
the problem i have preflop with a pot reraise here (about $1.50 and leaving me about 8.50) is the expected reaction of the UTG and what that should mean from the other two. i can't see the UTG folding, so i imagine a call from the lower end of their range will bring at least one other along (pot of $5-$6).

i get your point about SPR; the thing that worries me is that i feel i have to smash the flop harder than my opponents multiway (after all, with my hand i have to hit one way or the other ). if i hit one pair on the flop or less, i don't know if i want to commit much more (made worse by my crappy position).

and if the UTG re pops it, it really narrows their range towards a pair Aces with flush draws, high double suited pairs, maybe something similar to me. for which i don't know if i want to call because at best i'm flipping and at worst i'm a dog to pocket Aces.

maybe my play is a bit too passive, but the way i see it is that the call is the low variance option.

again, happy to hear multiple opinions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladybruin View Post
This is the first issue you need to fix. 50bb and 100bb strategy both preflop and postflop are nothing alike. To get good at this game simplicity is your best bet. You need to start off learning one and only one buy in size. And if you want a long future with more opportunities across any poker site, then just learn 100bb.

Also although this is the small stakes sub-forum don't forget to also read the high stakes sub-forum. In the high stakes sub-forum I just covered my views on this stack size topic in the thread "where did you start."
it's funny you should say that. since my original post i have started playing more at 100bb and i have noticed a positive difference. i think that originally i was trying to limit my exposure (particularly as i felt i was still grasping concepts so i was playing more 50bb than 100b). and as you say, i was probably muddling my play between two different styles and switching between 50bb and 100bb.

Last edited by Merv303; 07-23-2021 at 02:55 AM.
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