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Small Stakes PL Omaha Discussion of 1/2 and below pot-limit Omaha poker

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Old 04-30-2021, 08:35 AM   #1
tightywhity
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overpair + nfd + gutshot

Interesting hand, SPR on flop is 7.75 blind vs blind.

Preflop: SB raises and I decide to 3bet with AsA34s. SB calls.

Flop: Pretty dry flop of J42 with two spades. Villain checks and I bet. Then the hand gets interesting as villain re-raises with a pot sized bet. The board shouldn't hit too much in a 3bet pot but it is blind vs blind. Villain could have a wrap around the 42 although I'm blocking a 3 and AA, could have a flush draw but I'm blocking that and a set (maybe JJ or 22 as I'm blocking a 4). This really smells like a set as I don't see any other hand raising so much so I'm going to put villain on that hand. My quick math says I have the following outs: 2 aces, 9 flush draw outs (maybe less if villain has a spade), 3 gut shot straight outs (the 5). The math is pretty close here in my opinion so I re-raise to get it all in now. What would you do?

PokerStars - $0.10 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 272.7 BB
SB: 231.4 BB
Hero (BB): 148.5 BB
UTG: 112.5 BB
MP: 146 BB
CO: 347.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A A 3 4

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) J 2 4
SB checks, Hero bets 12.9 BB, SB raises to 55.9 BB, Hero raises to 139.5 BB and is all-in, SB calls 83.6 BB
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Old 04-30-2021, 10:04 AM   #2
derjan
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

It shouldnt be bad getting it in. Though maybe because of the big stacks calling the raise is also an option.
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Old 05-02-2021, 05:04 PM   #3
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

You have a great hand, seems pretty standard to commit. Calling to call all turns could be better though, if it's someone who can be bluffing, but most won't so just ship.

Quote:
Villain could have a wrap around the 42
That shouldn't be a big part of their range.
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Old 05-02-2021, 06:09 PM   #4
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

2-3 of those flush outs are no good (if opponent has trips) because of the possibility of board pairing. Either way you still have a lot of outs. I wonder what the GTO solution would be on this?
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Old 05-02-2021, 06:38 PM   #5
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

I can't tell if you're being serious. You're extremely top of range here. You'd continue with way worse than this.

You realise SB is supposed to x/r some J998 and stuff like that right?
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Old 05-02-2021, 07:28 PM   #6
Lessons4r3Extra
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

At Plo10 I'm not sure there are many people x/r bluffing this type of hands. People tend to overcall 3bet and overplay hands they think are nuts, like small sets and two pairs, although we have min of 40% plus equity so we are surely not folding.

I think its safe to call and fold most (all?) pairing boards seeing as we have a whole stack behind left?

Is wanting to control pot / having the nfd a good reason to perhaps bet half pot?
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Old 05-02-2021, 07:59 PM   #7
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

I mean sure we arenít getting our equity as good as we would be against a more balanced player who can show up here with hands like J998 for the bluffski. But even against a flopped set, we have 11 outs twice. And if he has a pair and K hi flush draw, for example, we have him crushed.

Pile it in and gamble.


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Old 05-02-2021, 08:27 PM   #8
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

Quote:
I think its safe to call and fold most (all?) pairing boards seeing as we have a whole stack behind left?
No. You call you keep bluffs in. Can fold top pair pairing though.

Quote:
At Plo10 I'm not sure there are many people x/r bluffing this type of hands. People tend to overcall 3bet and overplay hands they think are nuts, like small sets and two pairs, although we have min of 40% plus equity so we are surely not folding.
You can justify anything with population reads. I think it's a mistake to lean too hard into that until you know the game well enough to make those decisions well. They might not x/r J998, but they might check raise J with a K high fd, or KK with Kfd.

You need to recognise you have an extremely strong hand and think of it that way, and not just feel bad because you lost the hand or whatever.

Quote:
Is wanting to control pot / having the nfd a good reason to perhaps bet half pot?
You can half pot, but it's not "pot control", but to keep weaker hands in, as you have a premium hand. I don't think splitting range IP in this spot is really necessary, so going 66-70% would be my choice but 50% is going to be reasonably similar EV. Lets you bet a bit more often, but put less pressure.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:32 AM   #9
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

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2-3 of those flush outs are no good (if opponent has trips)
We have the 4 of spades, so all 9 flush outs are good for now. If we don't turn a flush we will lose one out then.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:42 AM   #10
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

But thats why maybe we are better off calling the raise.

Villain can hardly fold if we hit and we can fold if villain locks up his hand.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:07 AM   #11
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

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Villain can hardly fold if we hit and we can fold if villain locks up his hand.

the problem is what if villain has something like over pair + fd or top pair + fd. or even just bare king high flush draw. then we could turn gin, a 2 or a 4, and check fold. most combos of 22 and 44 aren't raising pre from the sb, so unless we think villain is only c/r the flop with JJJ I'd rather just GII now. if we are against a set we're not that much of a dog, and I think chances are decent that we are already crushing.


imo we should bet more like 50% or 33% on this flop, as we do want to bet at a reasonably high frequency imo.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:34 AM   #12
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

We use small bets a lot more OOP. A lot of the hands that would want to small bet, when we are IP, would prefer to just check, as such we tend to use a larger sizing when IP but just bet more polarised.
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Old 05-03-2021, 10:07 AM   #13
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

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Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
the problem is what if villain has something like over pair + fd or top pair + fd. or even just bare king high flush draw. then we could turn gin, a 2 or a 4, and check fold. most combos of 22 and 44 aren't raising pre from the sb, so unless we think villain is only c/r the flop with JJJ I'd rather just GII now. if we are against a set we're not that much of a dog, and I think chances are decent that we are already crushing.

imo we should bet more like 50% or 33% on this flop, as we do want to bet at a reasonably high frequency imo.

Well that's true. Realistically on this board villain can only have one set and multiple Jss combo's. Although I dont see them playing get it in so often.

Then in the end getting it in on the flop should be ok. But calling the raise if we think villains range is strongly biased to sets only is also an option.

And then because it is stars we can always cash out for the 1% if we don't like flipping.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:20 PM   #14
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

@pokergamble your right. I we should subtract only 1 of the 9 flush outs. . Ex. If a 6 ofspade comes on the turn we have to worry about another 6 coming on the river.

Somewhere on the internet I seen a chart where you put in your outs and your opponents out for PLO and it tells you your chance of winning the hand. Does anyone know where to find this? This would work perfect in this situation. Maybe it was in super system 2?

Last edited by Jreven; 05-03-2021 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 05-03-2021, 11:49 PM   #15
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

Quote:
Somewhere on the internet I seen a chart where you put in your outs and your opponents out for PLO and it tells you your chance of winning the hand. Does anyone know where to find this?
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations
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Old 05-04-2021, 09:58 AM   #16
tightywhity
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

Lots of great feedback here... one of my hesitations of calling is that if villain pots a non A or flush turn I'd likely fold so I could get bluffed off this hand? Although it sounds like in theory I should call all turns.

Here's the rest of the hand... I have to admit I was surprised by what villain had as my analysis on the range was all wrong (although inky poker was closest to calling this hand I believe?)

PokerStars - $0.10 PL Hi FAST (6 max) - Omaha Hi - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 272.7 BB
SB: 231.4 BB
Hero (BB): 148.5 BB
UTG: 112.5 BB
MP: 146 BB
CO: 347.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A A 3 4

fold, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, SB calls 6 BB

Flop: (18 BB, 2 players) J 2 4
SB checks, Hero bets 12.9 BB, SB raises to 55.9 BB, Hero raises to 139.5 BB and is all-in, SB calls 83.6 BB

Turn: (297 BB, 2 players) 8

River: (297 BB, 2 players) 5

SB shows 7 3 J Q (Flush, Queen High)
(Pre 32%, Flop 24%, Turn 23%)
Hero shows A A 3 4 (Flush, Ace High)
(Pre 68%, Flop 76%, Turn 78%)
Hero wins 284.4 BB
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:29 AM   #17
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

@inky - what the reasoning behind using a smaller bet sizing OOP?
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Old 05-05-2021, 09:37 PM   #18
InkyPoker
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Re: overpair + nfd + gutshot

It's complicated and solvers don't fully follow human logic, but the to simplify it greatly, basically it allows you to have a larger betting range, which will slightly nullify IP's ability to control when they get a free card or not. It allows you to protect your hand more and not let them check back the stuff that has non nutted equity.

When you're IP, however, you have complete control once checked to of whether you see a free card or not, and as such, you can simply check back all the hands that want free card, and your focus now is to maximize pressure with the hands you still want to bet, as opposed to upkeeping a sufficiently larger range, so you end up betting larger. If you were to bet small IP you would bet a significantly larger frequency than OOP.

In reality IP bets similar frequency as OOP, but this is because IP has a a stronger range given that OOP has checked. If you nodelock no bet from OOP you will see the numbers plummet.
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