KdTs3hQs in the BB
4 limpers, the button minraises, SB coldcalls. I call. All limpers call.

Flop comes TcQh5s. 14bb pot. SB checks. I've flopped top two pair.

If I give the raiser a range of QQ+ and rundowns where the bottom card is at least 8, and give the limpers ranges of any pocket pair and any rundown with no more than 2 gaps (honestly, their ranges are probably a heck of a lot wider than that - that's still only about 40% of all hands!), PokerProTools OddsOracle (PPTOO) gives me equity of 21% against those ranges. If I change the limpers' ranges to 100% of hands my equity goes up to 25%. I'll continue, conservatively, with the 40% ranges.

Side note: If I change the 5s to 5c (taking away my threeflush and putting a flush draw out there for someone else), my equity goes down to 20% (with the 100% ranges).

According to PPTOO, there is about a 44% chance that somebody flopped a set. I'm drawing VERY thin vs. a set (55**, QQ** and TT** represent about 4% of all hands).
There are also combos of AKJ*,KJ9* and J98* that I'm essentially flipping against (note that a few of those also have outs for a higher two pair). That's about 3% of all hands.

I don't know to calculate the probability that someone has EITHER a set or one of the 13-out draws I don't want to see, but I'll estimate it at about 70%.

On this site, villains will CALL with a RIDICULOUSLY wide range of hands - one-pair hands, worse two pairs, threeflushes, naked OESDs, and overpairs are only PART of it.

And I do NOT believe villains are paying any attention whatsoever to my tendencies.

USUALLY if someone has a set or a monster draw they will raise. There is the occasional slowplayer on this site but I'm careful to make notes when I see it happen.

Here's something that surprised me: Here's what happens to my equity based on certain turn cards:

2d - down to 16%
Ad - down to 11%
2s - up to 26%
9s - up to 26%
8d - down to 13%

Any card besides a spade, Q or T makes my equity go DOWN. That's 15 cards, 2 of which are in my hand and 3 of which are on the board, so I'm essentially hoping for one of 10 cards (out of 45 unseen) to hit the turn!

So getting to the point, what do I do massively out of position on the flop?

Despite all of the numbers I just churned, I can't decide. The numbers obviously favor a check, but it just seems way way way way way too nitty! If I'm not betting top two pair on a rainbow flop what AM I betting?

And more to the point, if I'm not hoping to hit top two pair with QsTs3hKd for one big blind in a 7-handed pot, what am I hoping to hit? I guess that's the question.

OK I apologize if this thread seemed confusing, but it seems to me like calling there from the big blind getting those insane implied odds is a no-brainer, but it seems like I'm hoping to flop either a straight or a huge draw or I'm done. Even top two pair on a raggedy board in a 7-handed pot just doesn't have enough equity to warrant going nuts.

EDIT: If I wrote the query right I'm only going to flop a straight 3% of the time. I will try to calculate the odds of flopping a 13+out draw later, but I'm sure it's enough to warrant calling getting essentially 13 to 1 (limp-reraises on this site are very very very rare).

Hope this made at least a modicum of sense and I will appreciate feedback.

DTXCF

You are using a specific 40% range, this is bad. If villains are playing limp/call 40% they aren't playing this specific 40% range because they are 100% playing stuff like KcQc5d3d ... this probably changes the calcs. of everything a lot. You can just put 40% or 80% or whatever in PPTOO. I get 3-4% per. person if I ask PPTOO "how often each player flop hand category is set" ... that's not 44%. You are flipping ahead vs. AKJ, and you can play turns fairly well.
So like every site then? I don't get these numbers. 2d has your equity at 26.3%; Ad it does go down, but not that much. Also 7s you go up a lot. This also assumes everyone stays in ... but when you bet out ppl will generally not call even a half pot bet with 764.

Check your numbers, look at PPT website for 5 villains and it shows similar data to 6 villains in PPTOO. Understand that hands that see the turn will generally change a lot when you bet out. Villains will also generally be worried about random QQ and TT (because they'll know they have them) so you won't see raises with random AKJ as often as you think anyway (esp. if they have even half a clue and realize they have the only real draw so you are more likely to have a non-draw hand. Bet, but don't try to put all the money in. It's the nature of multiway pots that you'll lose with better hands more often.

Thanks. "So it's like every site then?" <===Global Poker is the only site I've ever seen like this. Americas Cardroom is a nitfest even at the .01/.02 tables. Ignition and Carbon Poker are not quite nitfests but they're nowhere near as loose as Global, not even close.

Are you a non-US player? If so, what sites have you played on where you'll see 7 players limp-call into a flop and call pot flop bets with the range I described? Maybe I'll move .

EDIT: I'll respond to the rest of your post when I have a chance to crunch the numbers as you suggested.

Good analysis it is a check. Your preflop hand is also garbage. Top two pair is not strong enough to play for stacks vs. nitty GII ranges, nor is mid set. When the money goes in you are flipping vs. a wrap, crushed by sets and only ahead of worse two pair. This is Omaha not Holdem. Ypure supposed to draw to the nuts and top two is a weak nut boat draw in most postflop scenarios

+1 to illiterat

Bet, but don't necessarily play for stacks. In fishy games you'll get lots of calls from worse so there's plenty of value.

If the game is especially fishy and loose you can even go for a check/raise to get it in. I wouldn't even call getting it in vs loose players with a checkraise to be thin value. There's just plenty of random stubborn AA, KK, and Qx that won't fold. Note that if you lead flop those hands aren't raising, which is why you can get it in with a C/R but not after you bet and get raised yourself.

Another reason to prefer betting and C/Ring over just checking is that checking doesn't really solve your problems. If you just c/c down on favorable boards you're still losing a ton of your stack to a set, and checking and folding top two is incredibly weak. There also aren't many bluffs to induce on a dry board in a multiway pot.