Any recommendations for a new PLO player limited experience in poker overall. I have a DC membership. With their videos I find I can follow the videos but that doesn't give me a routine process to follow during the game, or what to work on first in learning the game, so find it hard to get started from their site (same for NLHE videos). Especially for the flop for PLO. They will list all the factors important in determining the play on the flop at length in a theory video, then jump into hand histories or live play and analyse in a way a beginner can't do at the table which is natural for an experienced player.

I want a process where I follow it through on each flop the same step by step while learning to help learn, and don't get that from DC videos unless I missed one on flop play (I think I've seen them all up to the flop).

Any other sites better for this or any books? If its not out there then maybe coaching is most efficient to get started?

You want to have fish generally to your right and tight players to your left.
If the fish on your right don't make up for the stations on your left, i would leave the table. If they make you tighten up your range, they take room to exploit the players on your right, because you can't play that much hands against them. If its micro/small stakes it shouldn't be a problem to find a better table anyway.

Thank you for this helpful forum. I read, but did not post so far.

After a bit less than one year of experience playing NLHE, I have a reasonable bankroll for NLHE $25 (6 max). Recently I felt like trying PLO (6 max), even if just to keep things varied and interesting.

I ordered Jeff Hwang's book (I know it is focused on full-ring, but it seems recommended for starters nevertheless) and found that it has a nice chapter on PLO eight or better. It seems that this game is considerably less swingy than PLO hi. Would it make sense to learn PLO8 first to practise hand reading and drawing (I am aware that it is quite a different game from PLO, but still), extend my bankroll further until I reach 75 buy-ins for PLO $25 (I am conservative and there are no smaller games on Party Poker) and then after a while make the step to PLO? Or is this route a bad idea?

i would read the hwang book and start with plo. the book has very good chapters on big pot play, drawing hands vs made hands etc...it's a good start to begin learning. reading that book + browsing daily through the strat threads will help you a long way.
for example keep your eyes on what kind of hands people open from which position, when do they 3bet, when do they cbet...(talking about the strat threads)...and that you will give you a pretty good overview on the basics of 6max play. aim at playing ~25-20% of your hands and pfr of 18-22% and you're good to go.

In my opinion learn plo first and then jump in to plo h/l if you still have interest. I did that like 3 years ago and basicly start crushing it immediately.

Plo h/l players are usually not that good hand readers and they rely to make their nut low, which most of then draw like freaks. It gives better hand readers a big edge on hands where there are no low possibly.

Got 2 hands here, any feedback (positive and negative) would be greatly appreciated

http://weaktight.com/4345870

http://weaktight.com/4345876

Thanks in advance

1) Pre you can fold, but I wouldn't. Post is wp.
2) Same thing. You can fold pre, but I wouldn't from the button. Post is wp also.

napsus and SlimyF, thank you for your replies. I think I will move to a site (likely Pokerstars) where I can play PLO $10 and follow your advice. (Probably for you playing PLO $10 is a joke, but I really don't like to pay high "tuition fees" when I have less than 75 buy-ins for PLO $25)

The book by Hwang is a really good read so far. Clear and convincing.

For what it's worth, I sent a mail to Party with the suggestion to start offering PLO $10 tables.

Hand 1: Should I just try to get it in on the flop, instead of having to call on a blank turn?

No, it really isn't.

You have to start from somewhere and starting from low stakes is the only right way to do it. Why would you like to play in a game where you have basicly no change to win in a long term? Learn the basics there and move up after you've improved your skills. No need to pay too much for learning.

e: Also having one Grolsch here and there when you play might improve your game. But enjoy responsibly.

No, because he has a set very often and you can fold when turn pairs. You save a lot of bb's that way. If you shove, you're never a big favourite. There are some cases when he doesn't have a set when he bombs a pairing turn, but your 8 high is not going to be the best hand very often even then..

I did a search for best euro site for ssplo. one of the threads I was reading was closed, and linked to this thread. I am relatively new to plo. been playing for about a month now on stars...plo25 and plo50. I'm getting like 400-500 VPP/day and the rakeback just isn't that great for a player like me. I have been thinking that it might be better to go to a euro site with a great rb deal until i am rolled for plo100. What site would you suggest?

What sort of bankroll management is appropriate from $5 to $25 limits (0.02/0.05 - 0.10/0.25) considering the high rake at these limits?

I want to have an aggressive approach, but the swongs are so big in PLO so can't copy an approach from NLHE and expect it to play out the same. I don't want to be stuck at any limit grinding with such high rake for an occasion

I've seen a 50 + 10 in a PLO article series and the thought of that is depressing with stars rake, and it recommended 8 tables which I'm never going to do while learning the game.

I've seen a 12 + 3 in an aggressive approach for NLHE, what would a comparable approach be for PLO? 12 + 5 or 15+ 5?

I'm playing two tables initially so not like I can blow a 5BI shot in less than a minute (maybe 2 mins in PLO).

There are some good rakeback deals going around for Ipoker I got one for 50% may sign up soon. Others may be able to tell you about the player pool there.

http://en.donkr.com/forum/plo-from-s...-part-8-533530

Good point, thanks

I'm not really an expert in microstakes BRM, but I think 20 should be fine up to PLO10, especially if ur only playing a couple tables. u can always move down if u bust a 10BI shot, etc. If going busto is a big deal for u, take a more conservative approach, obv.

just got weeks free trial on deuces cracked.

any reccomendations for micro/small stakes PLO very much appreciated.

Hellomaha and solid state PLO series. As I moaned about somewhere though they give fairly thorough discussion of preflop and flop in lectures which is very beginner, then jump into flop and turn play and the discussion there which is suitable for their level and marginal hands vs. regs, not ABC play.

I've had to go back to more beginner material Jeff Hwang's book but maybe I should have searched the internet for beginner articles first. I'll move on to their video series next as they are good.

I still got a question about this. In his "curriculum" on p. 174 Hwang advocates a passive pre-flop style of consistent limping in micro-games with premium and speculative hands, arguing that PLO is a post-flop game.

What are people's thoughts about this here? I have have been limping with premium and some speculative hands during the past days with relative success, noticing that people usually raise and 3-bet their big pair hands (AAxx-TTxx), which then become vulnerable after the flop, sometimes allowing me to win a big pot. Obviously it leads to moderate VPIP and very low PFR numbers.

I'm having some trouble deciding how how to push my wraps. I was watching a video on blue fire poker, where the coach took a bet-fold line on the flop with a wrap. the board had a flush draw and also there were better possible wraps. But basically my question is...how hard to push your wraps on the flop? and how much does the board having a flush draw change how you play your wraps?

Thanks guys

Since u don't have to worry about balancing in the micros, u have two good reasons to raise/3bet pre: isolation and domination. The purpose of isolation is to play a HU pot (in position) vs the fish, this usually works when u 3bet his open. Raising when dominating is done to maximize value when both u and villain flop a piece of the board, like QJT9 vs T876 on T9x or AAds vs JT87ss on 65xss. The weaker hand will often feel obligated to just go with it when the pot is raised pre instead of limped.

FDs on the board significantly reduce the value of wraps, so b/f makes sense. a 13-out wrap can turn into 9-outer, and if villain shares any of ur str8 outs with a gutter, u can be in really bad shape. This is also a good reason not to play rainbow rundowns.

This is my setup

Name/hands
Vpip/prf/3b/steal
Cbet/ftocbet/donkbet/craise
aggflopfrq/turn/riv
wtsd/monieswonlast5min.

I like to use the steal as a quick correlation to pfr as to positional awereness dont have a fourbet as the sample usually is to small to mean anything, just use popup if its not clear. Donkbet is usefull when assigning postflop ranges, cr can be too especially if used with notes(like, checkraises topair+ fd, donks twopairs etc) When multitabling i like the manies won, and as a
"watch this guy", maybe tilting indicator.
Im thinking of adding positional awerness stat and cbet turn for barrel frequency, but its important that you dont clutter everything up as that is just confusing and of no use at all. I suggest u start with a few

Vpip/pfr/3b
cbet/fold2cbet/donkbet
total agression factor/wtsd

for example is a very good start..

also colorcoding is smart. I use blue as "solid/nit" beige/yellowish as "standard/neutral" and green as "******ed" (vpip example) at aggression stats i use red when high. I suggest you use what intuetivly feels "right". red for high aggression would be quite common i would think...
my 2 cents

Hey guys, cool thread. I just started learning PLO after like a year long break, my main game used to be HUNL. I have a short roll so I'm half-stacking 50 HU PLO. A few questions:

-Is the rake at this level too big to realistically win half-stacking?
-Are there any good threads discussing how certain hands play in 3bet pots? I'm a bit lost with hands like A789ss (whether to flat or 3bet) etc.
-Any good resources on learning cap/short? I like playing deep but it seems much more useful and profitable to know how to play shortstacked too.
-At what level 6max do people stop being such ****ing nits? I was gonna learn at 6max 25PLO but its just so boring because nobody ever raises or 3bets pre.

Also I have SH's transitioning to PLO book, worth a read or should I just play around with PPT (or both?).

Sorry if I repeated questions, thanks in advance for answers

Which Hwang book is this? Big play? As I have kindle version of his original I don't have clear page numbers, page 174 goes to river play. The post you quote above seems to refer to this book, which is discussing full-ring live , in which case the advice overall doesn't carry over to online micro 6max. Even the advice in general is a little too static for any game, not taking into account stack sizes (or other players that might be at the table enough). I am also reading Rolf Slotboom's second book and it is much more dynamic and includes stack size considerations which Hwang's first book doesn't. He would not agree PLO is simply "a postlop game" but that preflop strategy affects post and effective stacksizes affect preflop decisions a lot. He also has much more sophisticated bet sizing which isn't hard to understand or implement.

I'm trying to patch together a preflop strategy from various books and videos and moving away from Hwang's advice in this book. I'm finding such a mix of players at PLO5 and 10 from very tight rocks, a 24table bot, ABC players, to maniac 95/40/6 (last night for 60 hands at the table somehow) each with 40-300BB stacks that I need to know how to adjust and Hwang's book can't prepare for that. The sections on wraps and classifying starting hands are very useful though.