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Old 05-31-2013, 07:14 AM   #1301
DepositBonusKing
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Thanks for the reply, I look forward to a reply off some of the regs...I have 27,500 but my main problem is not having the time to put in. I generally do 2 table my sessions, occasionally 4 table. But with work + overtime I cant refuse, college and life (including 1st child on the way!) its a busy time for me. I suppose I'll have to make some sacrifices and make a big push for it if I am serious about beating PLO100 zoom and moving up to 200 where the rake is much less, in proportion (so I'm reading!)

Again, thanks for the reply coon74. I much appreciate it.
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Old 06-03-2013, 01:35 PM   #1302
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Transitioning from NL and have 2 Super Noob Questions, and I promise I tried to Google and also search here before posting.

1. How do I figure out what percentage of hands a certain range is? Let's say I was going to play super tight in a live 9-handed game and only play 4 broadways and DS Aces UTG. How do I figure out what percentage of hands that is?

2. How do I figure out what hands a certain percentage is (i.e. what hands are in a top 25% range)?

I just found ProPokerTools and it seems really cool, but I'm having trouble with the questions above.

Thanks in advance for the help guys.

Adam
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:15 PM   #1303
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

This thread should get you started, especially TP2P's post with detailed hand groupings based on PPT rankings:
3,5k Milestone: Starting Hand Chart for 6max

As a quick appetizer, I can tell u that any given pocket pair is 2,5% of hands, thus any AA/KK would be 5%. take out raggy combos and replace them with ds broadway combos and you have your std nitty 3bet range of 5-6%

It's also very important to realize that raw equity does not equal playability, you should concentrate on what components you want in ur starting hand range
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:08 PM   #1304
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

[1]-In PPT, put 100% as a hand. Then hit the count button. You'll get 270725 total possible hands. Put your range in and hit count. Divide that number by 270725 to get your range as a %.

[2]There is a list of hand rankings in the PPT website, but 270000 hands is so cumbersome that it's difficult to make a lot of sense out of a certain % unless it's real specific like what GGARJ said about pocket pairs.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:58 AM   #1305
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Thanks for the help guys. I have another question for those willing to help a noob out:

I do well in my loose-passive 2/5 NL games by iso-ing limpers/weak openers in position a lot. My reg opponents are fairly transparent/easy to read and most hands worth playing are worth iso-ing to get heads up.

That hasn't worked AT ALL during my transition to PLO. I'll 3bet a $20 open to $65 and get cold called in 4 spots. The correct counter-strategy would seem to be to simply tighten up a lot and only 3bet premiums, but then what do I do with 9987ss-type hands?

A. 3betting runs into the problem mentioned above.
B. Flatting to play multi-way with lots of chips behind creates reverse implied odds problems vs. better flushes and wraps.
C. Folding this hand in position just seems criminal.

So I have three options but they all seem pretty bad. Any advice?
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Old 06-05-2013, 02:59 PM   #1306
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

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Originally Posted by Tier1Capital View Post
Thanks for the help guys. I have another question for those willing to help a noob out:

I do well in my loose-passive 2/5 NL games by iso-ing limpers/weak openers in position a lot. My reg opponents are fairly transparent/easy to read and most hands worth playing are worth iso-ing to get heads up.

That hasn't worked AT ALL during my transition to PLO. I'll 3bet a $20 open to $65 and get cold called in 4 spots. The correct counter-strategy would seem to be to simply tighten up a lot and only 3bet premiums, but then what do I do with 9987ss-type hands?

A. 3betting runs into the problem mentioned above.
B. Flatting to play multi-way with lots of chips behind creates reverse implied odds problems vs. better flushes and wraps.
C. Folding this hand in position just seems criminal.

So I have three options but they all seem pretty bad. Any advice?
One pair single suited hands like that aren't really all that great. Based on the conditions above I'd say fold them.
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:19 PM   #1307
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Based in my limited experience and reading on the subject, live PLO plays a lot like micro-PLO online. If you're playing 9-handed, it's not a huge leak to see a flop with 9987ss from CO/BTN, as you can expect most villains to make atrocious mistakes postflop

Jeff Hwang says in one of his books "you don't need to win pots, you need to win money". While this line of thinking is problematic for online play above micros, it def works for live PLO. See lots of flops, c/f when you miss multiways. Favor nutty hands, as they play well multiways. You just need to think of it as a drawing game first and foremost.

Trying to iso limpers/weak opens is fine in position, but if your success rate starts plummeting, time to tighten up
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:08 PM   #1308
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Thanks guys. Based on those two responses, I'd say I should probably just fold. At this point in my PLO development I'm as likely to be the one making the atrocious postflop mistakes as the opponent.

I came up with the super nitty range below to give myself some guidance until I figure out what I'm doing. My general thought is to play really tight and nut peddle until I'm better able to figure out what's happening. I'd open up some in the CO and BTN. Any advice on hands to add/subtract would be appreciated.

4 broadways
3 broadways+nut suit (is something like AJT6ss worth playing in EP??)
AAxxds
AAxxss w/ connectors/gappers 46+
KKxxds w/ connectors/gappers 46+
QJT9, QJT8, JT98

It seems like in loose/passive games that go multi-way most every hand (lots of disguised AA/KK/QQ in those ranges) that pairs <QQ are pretty much worthless. If you flop a set of 9s, for example, and get the money in, you're either crushed by a higher set or flipping vs. a combo draw. It also seems like "non-nut suitedness" is close to worthless. Something like 8764ds looks pretty good to me, but when six people see a flop, the 8-high suit is irrelevant and you're also likely to be dominated by better straight draws/top two vs bottom two/etc. It seems like sticking to "nut makers" (top set, NFDs, big wraps) and playing pretty ABC is where the value is.

That's a huge adjustment coming from NL where a lot of the value is in iso-ing fish in position.
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:15 PM   #1309
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

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Originally Posted by DepositBonusKing View Post
Wow, I guess my noooobness is showing. I didn't realise rake was such a big problem as it is in PLO... what do you regs think about PLO100 zoom... what sort of rake am I paying here, expressed as bb/100. And do I really have to make it to supernova to make it generally a +ev situation trying to grind zoom.

Thanks in advance.
Just a bump for this guys.

1. What rake roughly am I paying expressed as bb/100 at PLO100 zoom?
2. What is the difference in RB earned at say platinum level compared to SNE?

Thanks
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Old 06-05-2013, 04:29 PM   #1310
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

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Originally Posted by Tier1Capital View Post
Thanks guys. Based on those two responses, I'd say I should probably just fold. At this point in my PLO development I'm as likely to be the one making the atrocious postflop mistakes as the opponent.

I came up with the super nitty range below to give myself some guidance until I figure out what I'm doing. My general thought is to play really tight and nut peddle until I'm better able to figure out what's happening. I'd open up some in the CO and BTN. Any advice on hands to add/subtract would be appreciated.

4 broadways
3 broadways+nut suit (is something like AJT6ss worth playing in EP??)
AAxxds
AAxxss w/ connectors/gappers 46+
KKxxds w/ connectors/gappers 46+
QJT9, QJT8, JT98

It seems like in loose/passive games that go multi-way most every hand (lots of disguised AA/KK/QQ in those ranges) that pairs <QQ are pretty much worthless. If you flop a set of 9s, for example, and get the money in, you're either crushed by a higher set or flipping vs. a combo draw. It also seems like "non-nut suitedness" is close to worthless. Something like 8764ds looks pretty good to me, but when six people see a flop, the 8-high suit is irrelevant and you're also likely to be dominated by better straight draws/top two vs bottom two/etc. It seems like sticking to "nut makers" (top set, NFDs, big wraps) and playing pretty ABC is where the value is.

That's a huge adjustment coming from NL where a lot of the value is in iso-ing fish in position.
Be sure to check out GGARJ's milestone thread on starting hands. It's linked by the man himself a few posts up.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:00 PM   #1311
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookt View Post
Be sure to check out GGARJ's milestone thread on starting hands. It's linked by the man himself a few posts up.
Am I correct in reading that the chart contains no unsuited hands in EP/MP other than AAxx and KKxx? Do you guys feels that unsuited broadway combos are unplayable OOP?
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:20 PM   #1312
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

They def have less value as drawing hands. They're still fairly strong due to their high card strength and play pretty well in HU/3way pots at 6max, but preferably in position.

The reason I chose not to refer you to that thread is your willingness to start off real tight and the fact that ur playing full ring (my assumption for most live games). It'll give you some ideas, but you really have to adjust the range given quite a bit to your own games. Based on your posts, ur on the right track in trying to play mostly nutty hands.

In live games, you'll no doubt encounter whales who will chase naked open-enders on flush draw boards, flushdraws on paired boards, draw to 2pair like in stud, and don't care if their draw is dominated. Exploiting these players is where you'll make money, not avoiding getting over-setted/draw-dominated by other regs - even though that's an important skill as well. Loosen up when the whales are in the pot
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:38 PM   #1313
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tier1Capital View Post
Am I correct in reading that the chart contains no unsuited hands in EP/MP other than AAxx and KKxx? Do you guys feels that unsuited broadway combos are unplayable OOP?
Yah, you know that the board will be rainbow only ~20% of the time, and if we're unsuited it just sucks. Obv doesn't mean we hit our fd all that often, but rainbow hands never hit a fd lol. It's far more important in Omaha than Holdem.

I rarely play unsuited hands, especially if the table is loose and a lot of people are seeing flops, either limped or raised.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:05 AM   #1314
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

total beginner here - I am opening about 16% of hands UTG (6max), I assume this is too wide especially for a beginner... am I correct?
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:07 AM   #1315
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

On one hand plo has piqued my interest, i've only played like maybe 5k hands lifetime lol but its fresh, different etc...but seeing some of the graphs just makes me want to stay the hell away from this game, but then I see the sicko degens playing and it makes me wanna sit down... lol

...and in general my gut is telling me if I want to continue to make money playing poker, I need to learn plo, I need to get good at it, but I honestly don't know if I can handle it. Is that normal for someone transitioning from nl>>plo to think that way?

Am I even right to think plo will be huge in the future? cuz honestly, i'd rather not go thru all the pains that come with learning a new game if it's not going to stick around esp if i don't particularly look forward to the huge swings.

Like I said before, I've only played maybe 5k hands, and while the game is somewhat interesting and pretty complex, I could see myself getting extremely frustrated/ losing motivation to grind/ study/ burning out. Again, is this normal?

edit: another consideration is i've read that without an amazing rb deal the rake is basically unbeatable below 100pl? is that correct? so, is it worth it to spend mucho $$ learning plo at lower stakes?

fwiw I primarily play 200nl and 400nl 6m. I'm a pretty big br nit (i have over 100bi for 400nl but I still play 200nl quite a bit and only play 600nl when its good). I know no one can give me a definite answer to my questions, but any guidance is appreciated

Last edited by Siculamente; 06-06-2013 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:55 AM   #1316
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

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total beginner here - I am opening about 16% of hands UTG (6max), I assume this is too wide especially for a beginner... am I correct?
It's table dependent. If it's a nitfest and you are getting one caller who plays fitorfold post flop, it's going to be fine.

That being said, good luck finding that table.

GGARJ has a preflop hand chart (in his well thread) that can give you an idea of starting hands to get you moving in the right direction. He is careful to qualify that it's not a be all and end all for the subject and you must adjust to the players at the table, but it's a real good start.
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:15 PM   #1317
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siculamente View Post
On one hand plo has piqued my interest, i've only played like maybe 5k hands lifetime lol but its fresh, different etc...but seeing some of the graphs just makes me want to stay the hell away from this game, but then I see the sicko degens playing and it makes me wanna sit down... lol

...and in general my gut is telling me if I want to continue to make money playing poker, I need to learn plo, I need to get good at it, but I honestly don't know if I can handle it. Is that normal for someone transitioning from nl>>plo to think that way?

Am I even right to think plo will be huge in the future? cuz honestly, i'd rather not go thru all the pains that come with learning a new game if it's not going to stick around esp if i don't particularly look forward to the huge swings.

Like I said before, I've only played maybe 5k hands, and while the game is somewhat interesting and pretty complex, I could see myself getting extremely frustrated/ losing motivation to grind/ study/ burning out. Again, is this normal?

edit: another consideration is i've read that without an amazing rb deal the rake is basically unbeatable below 100pl? is that correct? so, is it worth it to spend mucho $$ learning plo at lower stakes?

fwiw I primarily play 200nl and 400nl 6m. I'm a pretty big br nit (i have over 100bi for 400nl but I still play 200nl quite a bit and only play 600nl when its good). I know no one can give me a definite answer to my questions, but any guidance is appreciated
After playing Omaha, I would almost rather slit my throat than play Holdem. It's far more interesting, and there is more room for interpretation in playing styles. It's also swingier <<(not a word it seems), so if you can't handle that aspect, stay away.

Rake is pretty brutal. PLO25 is at about 16-20bbs/100.

If you don't feel like putting in several months learning, stick with HE.

I think the hardest thing about the game is that even if you have a strategy that you think is good, the variance can put you in a mental frame of mind that makes you question your strat. That in turn makes you change what you are doing and you never get enough volume at a particular strategy to know if it works or not.

With that in mind, coaching if you can afford it makes a lot of sense because the coach does have faith in his strat and won't let you stray off course. In the long run, sticking with a certain strat instead of flitting around tweaking stuff should make the learning curve shorter.

The question of whether Omaha will stick around is semi debatable, but I think it will be. The Euros have been playing and loving it for a long time.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:56 PM   #1318
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Does anyone have an excel spreadsheet which is an equity calculator for PLO 6 max?

Id love to be crunching some ranges when Im meant to be crunching other boring numbers at work :@)
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:49 PM   #1319
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

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Does anyone have an excel spreadsheet which is an equity calculator for PLO 6 max?

Id love to be crunching some ranges when Im meant to be crunching other boring numbers at work :@)
Not an excel spreadsheet but it does the job quite well:

http://propokertools.com/simulations
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:27 AM   #1320
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

As far as I understand, PPT is not an option because Internet traffic is restricted or otherwise controlled at the office Excel sheets exist for NLHE, but I'm sure no one will write a PLO spreadsheet even for preflop equities because of its enormous size (270725*270725, which exceeds Excel's maximum allowed table size, and I don't know if reducing it via suit symmetries is possible).

For the time being, I recommend studying PLO QuickStats (written by a 2-card WSOP bracelet winner, lol) at work: this file is informative and long enough to kill a lot of office time.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:20 PM   #1321
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Where can I get quick stats from ? Thanks
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:01 PM   #1322
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

How about googling before asking? I mean viewing not only the top result, but several top ones? (I'm a fish when it comes to 2+2 advertising policies )
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Old 06-09-2013, 08:30 AM   #1323
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

You make a bad call at the start of a session and spend the rest trying to make up for it then you get 2 outer'd on the river

[img]http://s3.************/feyfrlmo3/image.png[/img]
screenshot tools
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Old 06-10-2013, 07:08 AM   #1324
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

played yesterday my 1st session on plo25 and have some hands where i was unsure about the right play. the most hands i got on one opponent was about 50 so i don't think that these stats have much significance:

PokerStars - $0.25 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $48.75
SB: $6.82
BB: $33.42
UTG: $25.00
Hero (CO): $30.92

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has T 9 8 5

UTG raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, fold, fold, BB calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.65, 3 players) 9 7 J
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1.70, fold, fold

what do you think about my betsizing? i thought about checking behind as i won't to get checkraised. when i cbet here, should i cbet pot ?


PokerStars - $0.25 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $15.00
SB: $48.50
BB: $6.72
UTG: $34.16
Hero (CO): $32.85

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has K Q 8 J

UTG raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($2.05, 2 players) 7 4 K
UTG bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.55, 2 players) 9
UTG bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($11.55, 2 players) 9
UTG bets $6.75, Hero calls $6.75


that was a very tough call for me on the river. so my question: is this even a "very tough" call at all ? i think calling on flop and turn is ok as my hand has a lot of backdoor-equity and checkraising is not an option because if villain jams over that i'm pretty much crushed.
on the river i thought the half pot bet is some sort of desperation to win the pot as i can't see any strong hand in his range than a set or the rivered trips, but it felt more like a bluff to me...

ok post some more today but will keep this entry relatively short
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Old 06-10-2013, 08:21 AM   #1325
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by cizzo91 View Post
played yesterday my 1st session on plo25 and have some hands where i was unsure about the right play. the most hands i got on one opponent was about 50 so i don't think that these stats have much significance:

PokerStars - $0.25 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $48.75
SB: $6.82
BB: $33.42
UTG: $25.00
Hero (CO): $30.92

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has T 9 8 5

UTG raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, fold, fold, BB calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.65, 3 players) 9 7 J
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $1.70, fold, fold

what do you think about my betsizing? i thought about checking behind as i won't to get checkraised. when i cbet here, should i cbet pot ?


PokerStars - $0.25 PL Hi (6 max) - Omaha - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $15.00
SB: $48.50
BB: $6.72
UTG: $34.16
Hero (CO): $32.85

SB posts SB $0.10, BB posts BB $0.25

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero has K Q 8 J

UTG raises to $0.85, Hero calls $0.85, fold, fold, fold

Flop: ($2.05, 2 players) 7 4 K
UTG bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.55, 2 players) 9
UTG bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($11.55, 2 players) 9
UTG bets $6.75, Hero calls $6.75


that was a very tough call for me on the river. so my question: is this even a "very tough" call at all ? i think calling on flop and turn is ok as my hand has a lot of backdoor-equity and checkraising is not an option because if villain jams over that i'm pretty much crushed.
on the river i thought the half pot bet is some sort of desperation to win the pot as i can't see any strong hand in his range than a set or the rivered trips, but it felt more like a bluff to me...

ok post some more today but will keep this entry relatively short
[1] Bet bigger vs 2 players. There will be fds about 1/2 the time. Maybe turns our hand face up, but not if we are betting our own fds the same or similar sizing.

[2] UTG range doesn't hit this flop except KK or AA, so if he has sets, its just lol. Turn hits utg range and we also lose to AK. I don't consider it an easy call.

Would consider 3 betting to about $2.10 pre. Call 4bet obv.
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