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Old 09-22-2014, 12:33 PM   #2551
arukidinme
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Been struggling pretty hard this summer since coming back to 10PLO/25PLO. I am really stumped but feel like I am calling too many river bets/raises at these stakes. Also I might be calling too many flop raises (but I feel like the raises are often made hands and never draws so I often call with the thought of getting implied odds).

Any suggestions on maybe some common leaks that I have and just not seeing here. I have actually tightened up my EP/HJ/CO range while I try to get through the slump (probably more like 20/20/36 VPIP). from those positions at the moment.



To be fair my focus the last few moments has been working on volume which has resulted in some B game and auto pilot moments but really want to work on this part of my game and finding it difficult to improve.


I am pretty damn good with HM2 so if there are thoughts on ways I can improve I should be able to mine through my hands and see how I am playing those hands/spots.
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Old 09-22-2014, 02:31 PM   #2552
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

I think you would benefit from toning down your preflop VPIP from all position except BTN.
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Old 09-22-2014, 04:24 PM   #2553
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parsons Grinder View Post
Just started playing PLO, absolutely loving it!
+1 But I get a bit tired of getting quads all the time, like when the weak player has been calling me to the river but now that the board pairs he won't call with his TP anymore and just the set would have been good enough for me.

Could I ask a general question on extracting value when you absolutely smash the board. Like in this hand where I flop the Nut-Flush. I mean should I try to go for a bet/bet/CR (assuming still having the nuts)? Being 250bb deep OOP feels a bit icky though and hence I'm not that against ending the hand, but when I CR here I think I telegraph having the nuts. I guess C/R might be the worst option? Would betting or check-calling be the better play? Villain seems aggro, but very limited sample of hands. If there is a chance that he would bluff-raise us then I guess betting would be best.

Poker Stars $2.00 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter
BTN: $1.16 - VPIP: 37, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 1,1, Hands: 38
SB: $3.27 - VPIP: 53, PFR: 12, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 17
BB: $1.11 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 22, 3B: 25, AF: 0,0, Hands: 9
Hero (UTG): $5.21 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 12, 3B: 2, AF: 2,2, Hands: 1259
MP: $6.97 - VPIP: 43, PFR: 22, 3B: 0, AF: 1,8, Hands: 23
CO: $7.98 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 10, 3B: 3, AF: 3,3, Hands: 81
Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with A Q K T
Hero raises to $0.07, 1 fold, CO calls $0.07, 3 folds
Flop: ($0.17) 3 9 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.16, Hero raises to $0.64, CO folds
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Old 09-22-2014, 04:40 PM   #2554
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Just bet/bet/bet. Villain's range is skewed more than usual towards hands that will play passively if given the chance -- A299 would be like the nut nut flush to x/r (though a set certainly isn't necessary).

You have one of the weakest (i.e., lowest EV) nut flushes possible, so don't feel entitled to a significant % of villain's stack!

I think I'd x/c as played. That pot-sized bet feels exceptionally FOS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BotOnTilt View Post
I guess C/R might be the worst option?
The optimistic slant is that check/raise > check/fold > open fold.
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Old 09-23-2014, 04:27 AM   #2555
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

^ would x/r be a better option with say AKQT than betting or x/c flop?
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Old 09-23-2014, 08:50 AM   #2556
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Better than x/c, yes. I think you'd prefer betting over x/r-ing unless villain has exploitable frequencies, like betting too wide for "value" when checked to, in which case you could check everything.

AQT9 is the type of hand that might strictly prefer check-raising on an early street. It does reasonably well when the action goes check-check, but it isn't strong enough to check-call more than one bet.
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Old 09-23-2014, 11:01 AM   #2557
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami View Post
A299 would be like the nut nut flush to x/r (though a set certainly isn't necessary).
Wouldn't A253 actually be a better hand? I mean that gives villain the chance to have the top-set while we have blockers to the full-house and improve our equity if villain wants to gamble? Of course strictly equity wise we are stronger with FD+Set...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami View Post
The optimistic slant is that check/raise > check/fold > open fold.
Haha, true. At least we get some value it checks true

Hey I have a general question about hands where we don't have the nuts, but our equity is great. Is it better to peel and try to make our hand, or should we just try to shovel the money in? Obv its going to be very situation dependent, and I guess often the turn might kill the action - like a flush card. Here is a sample hand where I wasn't sure if flatting was better than potting. HEM shows me I have more equity than the nut-straight.


Poker Stars $2.00 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $10.38 - VPIP: 27, PFR: 12, 3B: 4, AF: 2,9, Hands: 153
SB: $1.24 - VPIP: 0, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 3
BB: $7.54 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 17, 3B: 4, AF: 3,0, Hands: 71
UTG: $3.24 - VPIP: 50, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 6
MP: $0.75 - VPIP: 33, PFR: 33, 3B: 0, AF: 0,0, Hands: 3
Hero (CO): $2.05 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 12, 3B: 2, AF: 2,4, Hands: 2497

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with Q T Q 9
UTG raises to $0.04, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.04, BTN calls $0.04, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.15) A Q J (3 players)
UTG bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.60, BTN calls $0.60, UTG raises to $2.55, Hero calls $1.41 all in, BTN folds

Turn: ($4.77) K (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($4.77) 4 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Spoiler:


I figured I'd move up to PLO5 once I've grinded 10 stacks from PLO2. Just accomplished that, so I'll see if there is any difference. I'm not even going to complain that I was 15bb's under EV and only got 40bb/100 over the 2.5k hands I played Why couldn't I run that hot when I was last playing mid-stakes.. lol.

Are there any noticeable differences between PLO2, PLO5 and PLO10 on the Stars Zoom tables? Was surprised how nitty the PLO2 games were, at least today when I played during the day. Back in 2007 when I was starting NLH there were less regs at NL4 than I see fish at PLO2.
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Old 09-23-2014, 11:53 AM   #2558
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by BotOnTilt View Post
Wouldn't A253 actually be a better hand?
Good question. Ran a large number of sims, and A253 is slightly better on run-outs where the board doesn't pair (despite having slightly less equity than A299), but A299 has an overall edge due to the pairing turns and rivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BotOnTilt View Post
Hey I have a general question about hands where we don't have the nuts, but our equity is great. Is it better to peel and try to make our hand, or should we just try to shovel the money in?
The general rule: you want to get it in when 1) you can do so profitably (ldo), and 2) when your equity is non-nut and suffers accordingly on future streets.

QQ, QX, and T9 are all second-nut components and remain so on nearly every turn and river.
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Old 09-23-2014, 01:56 PM   #2559
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Yeah, but I mean in that hand I think we kind of fold out all the hands that aren't the nuts on the flop. Its probably not that ideal, given we have a set and the FD. On the other hand I don't really mind getting it in against the current nuts, as its also a profitable play as we have so much equity. I guess I'd also be lost if an A or a club falls on the turn, as I'd have the non-nut flush or could be playing against a larger FH, so maybe potting it is better?

About the As2s99, was mainly thinking that it would allow villain to have a hand he could play with (top-set) while we get blockers. Having bottom set on that board deep is a bit iffy.
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Old 09-23-2014, 04:09 PM   #2560
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

A few posters suggested that I should limp a bad AAxx hand from UTG. Is open limping standard among PLO regs? I notice some do it, but was just wondering is it something you guys recommend in general? In NLH I'd never do that, or even limp behind.

Guess I have two reasons for that, the main one being that I want to have the initiative in the hand and secondly it was difficult to keep my ranges balanced in NLH if I have an UTG limping range and raising range. I guess in PLO the ranges are wider, but still I do give out information about my weaker hand if I limp UTG than raise it. Maybe I should have rather started a thread about this, but I'd be interested in hearing opinions.
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Old 09-23-2014, 04:48 PM   #2561
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

preflop initiative is less valuable in PLO as equities run so close - blatant c-betting is less effective for obv reasons.

having a UTG limping range (AA-JJxx, AsKxx) makes sense when:

1) the flop is likely to be multiways regardless of whether you limp or open for pot
2) your opponents are clueless/spewy enough to pay you off when you do hit

Usually both these conditions are met when one of them is, hehe
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:05 PM   #2562
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Tattista Ville

Very nice explanation, I'll think I'll try it out. Makes sense when I spot a few weak players at my Zoom table who I know will pay me off if I hit. I guess in PLO its also much easier to see the flop due to the pot-limit, so the plan to limp-call might not be too bad.
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Old 09-23-2014, 05:39 PM   #2563
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Quote:
Originally Posted by BotOnTilt View Post
Yeah, but I mean in that hand I think we kind of fold out all the hands that aren't the nuts on the flop.
Fwiw, it's worth noting that if the PFR and the BTN fold all hands that aren't the nuts -- or better yet KT and AA with backup -- your raise will have an expectation somewhere on the order of +20 bb, assuming the PFR's c-bet frequency is reasonably, uh, existent (i.e., 40%+). This isn't because of FE; you'd make more when you get it in.

I'm not sure if you'll be able to top that by calling.

That is a horrendous strategy, otoh. Getting it in with KT no redraw is somewhere between optimistic and spew, bare AA is better than bare KT, and various KX combos can stack off. But we shouldn't be doing a lot worse vs. good strategies.
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Old 09-23-2014, 06:24 PM   #2564
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Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

Last hand for the day- probably the spewiest one but albeit alittle interesting.

Button is running 70/40 with 30% 3b.
CO was running equally wide.

Preflop; Considering Buttons high 3b% folding did not seem as an option since im ahead of his range. Also with the shortstack calling i was seriously considering 4betting. Because even if button has AA** (which is far from all of his range) we can assume that the shortstack will often join us and im guaranteed to have around 30-35% equity i think which should be enough.

But i got very unsure and it felt alittle light for 5plo to 4bet this hand.

Flop; Well far from optimal but not that bad. I didnt not want to b/f because to easy for button to just raise me and rep aces. Also considering his wide 3b range we can assume that he didnt get a big piece of this flop that often.

Of course it's weighted towards Ax hands and broadway draws but i should have alot of FE against his range. And when i run into the top of his range as sets i have decent equity. The only thing that scares me are 2p+nutflush and set+nutflush.

So balancing between c/f and c/shove i went with the latter.

As i sidenote - I would almost always shove if it was nutflush + pair like this.

Thanks in advance guys.

(edit) maybe i can c/c flop and shove certain turns. Didnt think about that line... need to take a smoke on it.

    Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #30976441

    BTN: $6.40 (128 bb)
    SB: $3.18 (63.6 bb)
    BB: $5.23 (104.6 bb)
    MP: $9.05 (181 bb)
    Hero (CO): $6.23 (124.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with 8 K K 2
    MP folds, Hero raises to $0.17, BTN raises to $0.55, SB calls $0.53, BB folds, Hero calls $0.38

    Flop: ($1.70) A 3 T (3 players)
    SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $1.25, SB folds, Hero raises to $5.38, BTN raises to $5.85, Hero calls $0.30

    Turn: ($13.06) 7 (2 players)
    River: ($13.06) A (2 players)

    Spoiler:



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
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    Old 09-23-2014, 06:37 PM   #2565
    Rei Ayanami
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hypoethical View Post
    But i got very unsure and it felt alittle light for 5plo to 4bet this hand.
    Definitely 4-bet. He's 3-betting 30%. The stakes don't matter -- except for the extra rake, which isn't enough to make a 4-bet wrong.

    Postflop: You "only" need 10-30% FE depending on how wide he stacks off, but I'm wondering if you have even that much.
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    Old 09-23-2014, 08:20 PM   #2566
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    if you 4b and jam flop your life is alot easier hypo.
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    Old 09-24-2014, 12:43 AM   #2567
    BotOnTilt
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    Thumbs up Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    TY Rei, yeah I like the potting then. Its great if we get a set of aces to fold or charge them a high price if they want to continue.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rei Ayanami View Post
    That is a horrendous strategy, otoh. Getting it in with KT no redraw is somewhere between optimistic and spew, bare AA is better than bare KT, and various KX combos can stack off. But we shouldn't be doing a lot worse vs. good strategies.
    This was especially useful. I think yesterday I'd auto-stack off as UTG in this hand knowing that I'm not in great shape and quite possible getting free-rolled. But now after reading your post I'd strongly consider folding naked KT given the action in the hand. I mean we would be a fairly large dog and could be looking at a split at best.
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    Old 09-24-2014, 10:21 AM   #2568
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    I guess I miss some basic omaha knowledge, I dunno, but this hand got me confused.
    Can someone explain why I got this pot with 2s full of 8s instead of him with 2s full of Qs?

    $0.01/$0.02 Zoom Pot Limit Omaha Hi
    PokerStars
    6 Players

    Stacks:
    UTG ($2.01) 101bb
    UTG+1 ($0.55) 28bb
    volt (CO) ($6) 300bb
    BTN ($1.30) 65bb
    SB ($2) 100bb
    BB ($3.80) 190bb

    Pre-Flop: ($0.03, 6 players) volt is CO A 8 5 8
    2 folds, volt raises to $0.07, 1 fold, SB calls $0.06, 1 fold

    Flop: 2 2 J ($0.16, 2 players)
    SB checks, volt checks

    Turn: Q ($0.16, 2 players)
    SB checks, volt checks

    River: 2 ($0.16, 2 players)
    SB checks, volt checks

    Final Pot: $0.16
    SB shows three of a kind, Deuces
    7 Q 8 A
    volt shows a full house, Deuces full of Eights
    A 8 5 8

    volt wins $0.15 (net +$0.08)

    SB lost $0.07
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    Old 09-24-2014, 10:38 AM   #2569
    guimz
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    answer: you take exactly 3 cards of the board and exactly 2 cards of your hole cards to make the best hand in omaha. therefore on a AAAA2 board nobody has quads and the best possible hand is KK.
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    Old 09-25-2014, 12:35 PM   #2570
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    Hi Im NLH player and never played PLO seriously- just spewed some for lols from time to time. So excuse me for a noob question: What are some average std deviations in PLO zoom games? I'm mainly interested in PLO50 and PLO100 level, if some regs can come up with numbers. Also, are these limits pure rake fest, or can be beaten pre rb?
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    Old 09-25-2014, 02:54 PM   #2571
    baat
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    ~130bb

    https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/15...-zoom-1461881/

    check this for rake.

    Last edited by baat; 09-25-2014 at 02:55 PM. Reason: added rake link
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    Old 09-25-2014, 04:57 PM   #2572
    hypoethical
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    Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

    This hand left a really bad taste inte my mouth. Really felt like i misplayed it.

    Villain is 69/36 with 55flop cbet 65%turn cbet and 100%river cbet.

    I interpreted these stats that he 3barrels quite wide as ive seen him doing it with an overpair+fd then barreled river when fd missed. But maybe i should interpret the stats as that the hands that does not give up on flop/turn and therefor barrels river 100% is a very strong range?

    Reason i did not x/r was that i were hoping that he would slow down and keep the pot somewhat small and that the board was quite dry.

    But maybe just c/f river?

    (edit) - the range i had him on was QQ,KK,AA - JJ - Worse fours and maybe a small portion of made straigths and boats.

      IPoker, $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Cash, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #31017521

      MP: $2.61 (26.1 bb)
      CO: $10.71 (107.1 bb)
      BTN: $3 (30 bb)
      Hero (SB): $10.50 (105 bb)
      BB: $25.52 (255.2 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 4 K K
      MP folds, CO raises to $0.35, BTN folds, Hero calls $0.30, BB calls $0.25

      Flop: ($1.05) 4 J 4 (3 players)
      Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets $1.05, Hero calls $1.05, BB folds

      Turn: ($3.15) 2 (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $3.15, Hero calls $3.15

      River: ($9.45) 3 (2 players)
      Hero checks, CO bets $4.72, Hero calls $4.72

      Spoiler:



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      Old 09-25-2014, 05:11 PM   #2573
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      Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by baat View Post
      thanks sir
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      Old 09-25-2014, 09:51 PM   #2574
      Abe Schmuckfeld
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      Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

      Quote:
      Originally Posted by Abe Schmuckfeld View Post
      my w$wsf is 40% at 6 max plo pretty bad right> theres a lot of guys to the flop in the games im playing in... my w$sd% is 49% or so. pretty sure i suck sigh

      thanks in advance
      anyone...?
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      Old 09-25-2014, 11:07 PM   #2575
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      Re: ***Official SSPLO Beginners Thread - New to PLO? Try this for quick questions/tips/chat***

      I'm not entitled to posting my stats as I'm not a winner, but I can tell for sure that having such stats is not a shame.

      The W$SD% stat ignores the size of the pots. Good micro players valuebet a lot, so the pots that they win are generally better than the pots they lose, therefore they still show profit on showdown even despite winning a bit less than half the time.

      Many mediocre players check back too often on rivers that should be valuebet (remember, it's justified every time when the hand is a favourite vs the opponent's calling range, no matter how often s/he will fold), hence they win more often than half the time, but win many small pots and lose a few big ones.

      W$WSF% doesn't account for the number of players seeing the flop; of course, in a game where it's over 3 on avg, 40% (significantly bigger than 1/3!) is a good result.
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