Line-checking some examples from Hwang
05-27-2018
, 03:09 PM
Hey everyone.
I've been trying to get some solid PLO skills under my belt for the first time in my poker career, and—while my research showed that some folks aren't hot on the book—I went ahead with Jeff Hwang's Pot-Limit Omaha Poker: The Big Play Strategy as my launching pad. I saw folks comparing it to Harrington on Hold 'Em in terms of offering a solid basis for the game, and HoH was huge for me in learning NLHE so I felt like it'd be a reasonable choice.
Anyway! I've read up until the Quizzes part of the book, and I wanted to come to 2p2 with a lot of the Situations (example hands) that I found a bit questionable. Most of them seemed completely reasonable, but I noted a bunch that I wanted to discuss with folks who know PLO far better than I do.
So here's my big torrent of questions (all quotes are from the book... which—by the way—if anybody is uncomfortable with how much I'm copying here, this is like the very definition of fair use via commentary imo):
Isn't a c/r horribly thin here, especially if we're c/f'ing the turn? My intution is to b/f or maybe c/c the flop, but I'm here to learn so tell me if I'm wrong.
(Truncating this at the important point for me.)
First of all, shouldn't we just be potting this hand PF when the action first hits us? (You'll see more of me questioning Hwang's PF bet sizing as we go.)
I don't know how to translate "a very loose raiser" into a specific range, but running our hand on PokerProTools has us ahead of the top 14% of hands with 50.27% equity. 14% might be too wide of a 3bet range even for "a very looser raiser", but that's the smallest percentage of hands that we're strictly ahead of and that seems useful to know.
So yeah, this hand feels like a pot-sized 4bet to me against the villain as described, but let me know how you feel about it. I can imagine I that might be advocating for spewing.
(Effective stack appears to be $950 in this hand, btw. Not sure why Hwang thinks we should know that the loose villain has $10k.)
This just seems like a horribly thin raise to me. PF raiser probably is weak but CO wants to come along and I feel like we just want to get to showdown as cheaply as possible and get out of here if the board gets scary and the price gets high.
Tell me if I'm wrong.
I feel like there are spots in this book where Hwang is saying "you probably have the best hand, so bluff!", and this is one of them. This just seems like a thin spot for a raise, to me.
Simple question: are we okay to just call here instead? It's a good hand, but our ace isn't suited and we're going to be out of position for the whole hand.
First question: is folding this preflop tight or just foolish?
Second: on the flop, we're in way worse shape than Hwang suggests, imo. We've only got five nut outs, if I'm not mistaken. I'm inclined to just check this behind at that point, and betting the turn seems like spew to me.
Is this always a raise for value or can we limp behind sometimes?
I don't have huge problems with this line, but jamming with middle set on a two-tone flop that we have no flush draw for seems reckless. Let me know what you think.
$4? Whyyyyyyyy. In a tournament, I get the purpose of a min-raise, but I don't get it for a cash game.
For this next example, the flop error (two 8
cards; I assume it's supposed to be 88
and there were OCR issues or something) is in my Kindle edition, not my transcription.
This play seems super face-up: "I have a weak 8 and I'm scared". Why not check for pot control? This is always going to be thin value if we're ahead at all, no?
Do we definitely raise here? Seems like a better multiway hand to keep people around for.
This next one bugged the heck out of me, but maybe I'm wrong.
I know that loving the underfull too much is a path to ruin, but wtf are we doing calling this flop and then folding to a half-pot stab at a 9
turn?
Only taking into account the bettor in the hand (which is perhaps foolish of me), we have 58.52% equity against Axxx on the flop, which is the only kind of hand we're worried about at all, right? (Against two Axxx hands, we're still the favorite.)
And yeah: wtf are we doing on the turn? Narrowing villain's range to A9xx and giving up? Assuming we got unlucky against a weird 99xx hand (maybe with two hearts in it)?
I'm saying we pot raise the flop and then have a tough decision if we're 3bet into (though I think I'm jamming with our equity).
Okay, so I think I'll stop here for now. If folks find this valuable/interesting, I'll post a few more hands from the book that I annotated, but this should be useful (at least to me) as a start.
And I don't mean to utterly slag the book, btw. The fact that I'm confident questioning these examples means it did a lot for my PLO thinking, but—to be clear—I'm totally open to being wrong about my observations above.
Here to learn! Looking forward to your feedback, thanks.
I've been trying to get some solid PLO skills under my belt for the first time in my poker career, and—while my research showed that some folks aren't hot on the book—I went ahead with Jeff Hwang's Pot-Limit Omaha Poker: The Big Play Strategy as my launching pad. I saw folks comparing it to Harrington on Hold 'Em in terms of offering a solid basis for the game, and HoH was huge for me in learning NLHE so I felt like it'd be a reasonable choice.
Anyway! I've read up until the Quizzes part of the book, and I wanted to come to 2p2 with a lot of the Situations (example hands) that I found a bit questionable. Most of them seemed completely reasonable, but I noted a bunch that I wanted to discuss with folks who know PLO far better than I do.
So here's my big torrent of questions (all quotes are from the book... which—by the way—if anybody is uncomfortable with how much I'm copying here, this is like the very definition of fair use via commentary imo):
Quote:
3. A $2/$4 game online. You are dealt 9953 in the small blind. Four players limp, you call, and the big blind checks. There are six players and $24 in the pot. The flop comes 984, giving you top set. You check, and it gets checked around to the last player, who bets $15. You raise to $78. The next three players fold, but the next player calls, and the original bettor folds. The turn is the 7
. What do you do?
Answer: Check and fold to a pot-sized bet. It is hard to see the other player checking the flop but calling a check-raise with anything but the straight draw, and probably Q-J-T-x, if not some other J-T-x-x combination.
953 in the small blind. Four players limp, you call, and the big blind checks. There are six players and $24 in the pot. The flop comes 984, giving you top set. You check, and it gets checked around to the last player, who bets $15. You raise to $78. The next three players fold, but the next player calls, and the original bettor folds. The turn is the 7. What do you do?Answer: Check and fold to a pot-sized bet. It is hard to see the other player checking the flop but calling a check-raise with anything but the straight draw, and probably Q-J-T-x, if not some other J-T-x-x combination.
Quote:
8. A $5/$5/$10 game. You are dealt the AKJ9 on the button. Three players limp, and you raise to $30. The small blind folds, and now the middle blind—a very loose raiser with a $10k stack—reraises to $100. It gets folded back to the cutoff, who calls. You call...
KJ9 on the button. Three players limp, and you raise to $30. The small blind folds, and now the middle blind—a very loose raiser with a $10k stack—reraises to $100. It gets folded back to the cutoff, who calls. You call...
First of all, shouldn't we just be potting this hand PF when the action first hits us? (You'll see more of me questioning Hwang's PF bet sizing as we go.)
I don't know how to translate "a very loose raiser" into a specific range, but running our hand on PokerProTools has us ahead of the top 14% of hands with 50.27% equity. 14% might be too wide of a 3bet range even for "a very looser raiser", but that's the smallest percentage of hands that we're strictly ahead of and that seems useful to know.
So yeah, this hand feels like a pot-sized 4bet to me against the villain as described, but let me know how you feel about it. I can imagine I that might be advocating for spewing.
(Effective stack appears to be $950 in this hand, btw. Not sure why Hwang thinks we should know that the loose villain has $10k.)
Quote:
11. $0.50/$1.00 game online. You are dealt the 7755 on the button. A middle player opens with a raise to $3. The cutoff calls, you call, and both blinds call. There are five players and $15 in the pot. The flop comes K95, giving you bottom set. Both blinds check, the pre-flop raiser bets $7 and the cutoff calls. It is $7 to you and there is $29 in the pot. What do you do?
Answer: Raise the pot...
755 on the button. A middle player opens with a raise to $3. The cutoff calls, you call, and both blinds call. There are five players and $15 in the pot. The flop comes K95, giving you bottom set. Both blinds check, the pre-flop raiser bets $7 and the cutoff calls. It is $7 to you and there is $29 in the pot. What do you do?Answer: Raise the pot...
Tell me if I'm wrong.
Quote:
$0.50/$1.00 game online. You are dealt the KQ98 in middle position. An early player limps, you limp, the small blind limps, and the big blind checks. The flop comes Q85, giving you top two pair with a flush draw.
The blinds check, and the limper bets $4. It is $4 to call and there is $8 in the pot. What do you do?
Answer: Raise. In a shorthanded pot, the bettor doesn’t have to have much, particularly being second-to-last in the hand. Your top two figures to be the best hand. Raise the max and expect to take the hand down.
Q98 in middle position. An early player limps, you limp, the small blind limps, and the big blind checks. The flop comes Q85, giving you top two pair with a flush draw.The blinds check, and the limper bets $4. It is $4 to call and there is $8 in the pot. What do you do?
Answer: Raise. In a shorthanded pot, the bettor doesn’t have to have much, particularly being second-to-last in the hand. Your top two figures to be the best hand. Raise the max and expect to take the hand down.
Quote:
20. A $1/$2 game online. You are dealt the AKQJ in the small blind. Five players limp, you raise to $10...
KQJ in the small blind. Five players limp, you raise to $10...
Quote:
21. A $1/$2 game online. You are dealt the T976 in middle position. The UTG player limps, a middle player raises to $6, you call, the cutoff calls, and the big blind and limper call. There are five players and $31 in the pot. The flop comes T85, giving you top pair and a 17-card straight draw. It gets checked to you. You bet $31, and only the big blind calls. The turn is the 5. The big blind checks. There is $93 in the pot and it is your action. What do you do?
Answer: Bet again. Having bet the flop, you can represent a set of 10s for the full house and try to take the pot down here.
976 in middle position. The UTG player limps, a middle player raises to $6, you call, the cutoff calls, and the big blind and limper call. There are five players and $31 in the pot. The flop comes T85, giving you top pair and a 17-card straight draw. It gets checked to you. You bet $31, and only the big blind calls. The turn is the 5. The big blind checks. There is $93 in the pot and it is your action. What do you do?Answer: Bet again. Having bet the flop, you can represent a set of 10s for the full house and try to take the pot down here.
Second: on the flop, we're in way worse shape than Hwang suggests, imo. We've only got five nut outs, if I'm not mistaken. I'm inclined to just check this behind at that point, and betting the turn seems like spew to me.
Quote:
23. A $2/$5 game. You are dealt KQT9 on the button. Two players limp, and you raise to $20...
QT9 on the button. Two players limp, and you raise to $20...
Quote:
24. A $0.50/$1.00 game. You are dealt the 7665 in middle position. An early player limps, a middle player raises to $2, and you call. It gets folded to the small blind, who reraises to $10. Only the original raiser and you call with position. There are three players and $32 in the pot. The flop comes Q63, giving you second set. The blind leads out with a $32 bet. The second player calls all-in for $20. You have $100 left and the bettor has you covered. What do you do?
Answer: Raise all-in for your last $100. Having reraised before the flop, the bettor is more likely to have Aces than a set of Queens, the only hand better than yours. The percentage play is to put it all in.
665 in middle position. An early player limps, a middle player raises to $2, and you call. It gets folded to the small blind, who reraises to $10. Only the original raiser and you call with position. There are three players and $32 in the pot. The flop comes Q63, giving you second set. The blind leads out with a $32 bet. The second player calls all-in for $20. You have $100 left and the bettor has you covered. What do you do?Answer: Raise all-in for your last $100. Having reraised before the flop, the bettor is more likely to have Aces than a set of Queens, the only hand better than yours. The percentage play is to put it all in.
Quote:
25. A $1/$2 game. You are dealt the KQQJ in middle position. You open with a raise to $4...
QQJ in middle position. You open with a raise to $4...
For this next example, the flop error (two 8
cards; I assume it's supposed to be 88 and there were OCR issues or something) is in my Kindle edition, not my transcription.
Quote:
26. A $5/$5/$10 game. You are dealt TT87 in middle position. An early player limps, you limp, the button limps, the small and middle blind call, and the big blind checks. The flop comes Q88, giving you trip eights with a ten kicker. Everybody checks to you. What do you do?
Answer: Bet. A bet of about $30–$40 (half to two-thirds of the pot) would be both appropriate and sufficient, with most of the field having checked to you.
T87 in middle position. An early player limps, you limp, the button limps, the small and middle blind call, and the big blind checks. The flop comes Q88, giving you trip eights with a ten kicker. Everybody checks to you. What do you do?Answer: Bet. A bet of about $30–$40 (half to two-thirds of the pot) would be both appropriate and sufficient, with most of the field having checked to you.
Quote:
27. A $2/$5 game. You are dealt 9876 in the cutoff seat. Three players limp, you raise to $20...
876 in the cutoff seat. Three players limp, you raise to $20...
This next one bugged the heck out of me, but maybe I'm wrong.
Quote:
29. A $1/$2 game. You are dealt the KK77 in middle position. Two players limp, you limp, the button limps, the small blind limps, and the big blind checks. There are six players and $12 in the pot. The flop comes AA7, giving you the underfull. It gets checked to the player in front of you, who bets $10. You just call, and the player behind you calls. Everybody else folds.
The first player has $110 left, you have $340, and the player behind you has $260 left. There are three players and $42 in the pot. The turn is the 9. The player in front of you bets $20. What do you do?
Answer: Fold...
K77 in middle position. Two players limp, you limp, the button limps, the small blind limps, and the big blind checks. There are six players and $12 in the pot. The flop comes AA7, giving you the underfull. It gets checked to the player in front of you, who bets $10. You just call, and the player behind you calls. Everybody else folds.The first player has $110 left, you have $340, and the player behind you has $260 left. There are three players and $42 in the pot. The turn is the 9
. The player in front of you bets $20. What do you do?Answer: Fold...
turn?Only taking into account the bettor in the hand (which is perhaps foolish of me), we have 58.52% equity against Axxx on the flop, which is the only kind of hand we're worried about at all, right? (Against two Axxx hands, we're still the favorite.)
And yeah: wtf are we doing on the turn? Narrowing villain's range to A9xx and giving up? Assuming we got unlucky against a weird 99xx hand (maybe with two hearts in it)?
I'm saying we pot raise the flop and then have a tough decision if we're 3bet into (though I think I'm jamming with our equity).
Okay, so I think I'll stop here for now. If folks find this valuable/interesting, I'll post a few more hands from the book that I annotated, but this should be useful (at least to me) as a start.
And I don't mean to utterly slag the book, btw. The fact that I'm confident questioning these examples means it did a lot for my PLO thinking, but—to be clear—I'm totally open to being wrong about my observations above.
Here to learn! Looking forward to your feedback, thanks.
05-27-2018
, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Hey everyone.
I've been trying to get some solid PLO skills under my belt for the first time in my poker career, and—while my research showed that some folks aren't hot on the book—I went ahead with Jeff Hwang's Pot-Limit Omaha Poker: The Big Play Strategy as my launching pad.
I've been trying to get some solid PLO skills under my belt for the first time in my poker career, and—while my research showed that some folks aren't hot on the book—I went ahead with Jeff Hwang's Pot-Limit Omaha Poker: The Big Play Strategy as my launching pad.
1. "the big play" how to have the nuts in large multiway pots.
2. "rando strat" how to exploit live/online plo players from 15 years ago.
...#1 is worth the price of the book, #2 is where most people here will twitch uncontrollably.
8 on Q85Even now, ignoring the other action, top two and a flush draw is a strong hand and it's hard for you to be crushed with it ... also given how bad your FD is you probably don't want random J high flush draws coming along ... and finally it's a limped pot with a min. bet and a million other draws (including higher two pairs) ... which turn cards do you want to see if you just call?
06-07-2018
, 02:00 PM
I own the Big Play Strategy as well as the 3 books from his Advanced Series, which came out a few years later.
All of his books have very though provoking situations, but from years ago.
Use the books as a solid foundation for how to play omaha, but don't treat them as the gospel truth. As many have pointed out, the current PLO landscape is much different than what it was years ago when these books were written.
Good luck with your journey, its a wild ride
All of his books have very though provoking situations, but from years ago.
Use the books as a solid foundation for how to play omaha, but don't treat them as the gospel truth. As many have pointed out, the current PLO landscape is much different than what it was years ago when these books were written.
Good luck with your journey, its a wild ride