live 6max 1/2 plo w 10$ live utg straddle
Very weak lineup we have a whales on both sides of us
Ad6c5c2d otb 550$ effective w/ MP


Mp opens for 35 everyone at the table calls
Flop Td7c4c(210)
x around
Turn Kd(210)
MP pots, folds around to the CO who tanks for a long time then reluctantly folds
i?

utg(whale) appears to be very interested and starts loading up his 250$ for a jam.
MP is on the tighter side, expect him to fold to any significant river bet if the flush comes in

Fold pre. The double suited is probably looking a lot better than it is anyway, 50bb deep, but then you flop the world and do nothing with position and 2.5x SPR.

On turn if you fold a 22 out draw you should really really fold pre.

After you call the first time it'll be ~600 in the pot and you'll have 300 behind, after UTG goes with it it'll be ~950 in the pot and you'll have 250 behind, although it will be a dry side pot.
Maybe you never shove worse than MP has on the river, maybe he always x/f getting 5 to 1.

Obviously never folding turn I'm just wondering if calling or jamming is more profitable here. Guess I kind of answered my own question seems like a call would be better.

Also I don't see a whole lot of value in betting into 5 players on the flop. Almost always going to get raised and end up in some tricky spots. I'd rather take a free card and get a chance at turning the nuts or an even better draw.

This is a bad thought process. Your hand is relatively strong now, and this is one of your better flops. Your hand plays better now vs. 5 people than it does on almost any turn vs. 5 people. You think nobody ever folds a better club draw to a bet? What about random J9 hands? 876 hands? It's even allowed for AQT7 to call ½ pot on flop and then fold to your turn shove.

The only "tricky spots" happen when 2 or more people reshove your flop bet.

Again, if you don't want to be "gambling" with this hand on the flop ... fold pre.

Think you should probably jam turn:

- Everyone might fold and we take down $400 pot (unlikely tbh)
- Whale or MP might fold out something like J9 + pair, or pair + j-high club draw, which is nice, so we go into river against fewer hands which are equity favorites against us
- There's a decent shot we don't get paid on a diamond or club river, might as well realize our equity now against top two + clubs/AQJ/a set, since we're not folding
- Our club and 8 outs aren't clean: calling and waiting to see could just get us owned by better draws, whereas they may check/fold most of the rivers that complete our draw

In this game it feels like we don't have as much fold equity as you think. Dry gutter balls prob folding K Q J high FD's dry wraps, they're just gonna get the money in and hope for the best. Also most of the players at the table aren't very deep(200-300$ to start the hand other than me and V. Im starting to agree with you about betting the flop, but don't love either option. Relatively new to plo, guess it would just be a lot better to play a tighter preflop range. At least until I'm feeling more comfortable.

Much prefer flop check to bet.

I don't really like betting flop, people can very easily check/jam to clean up the hand/reduce their positional disadvantage with a whole host of holdings and our draw is way too weak against that.

I'd just flat turn I don't think we have any fold equity on either player (whale only has $250 I don't think he cares what we do).

To remind everyone:

Hero: A652

Flop: T74


...and we have 2.5 SPR ... so I'm fine bet calling unless like 3 people decide to go with it after we bet. I can see discussions on sizing, but checking does what?

As I see it if we check we are hoping for a straight flush or a non 3, so 4 outs. A non 8 is our second best card ... and gives us the 3rd best straight with a whole bunch of better straight draws on a T748 board (although we have the flush redraw).

A turn means we'll have the around the 5th nuts in a 5 way pot and no way to improve (I guess hope for the straight flush binks).

A turn is pretty good, but can give two pairs or straight draws or trips+.



Checking flop means we are calling turns like this, happy when we hit a 3 but are mostly folding (Eg. non turn K and same action). Also even when we hit the miracle 3 the board now looks a lot scarier for anyone to pay us off.

Against ranges our hand should be significantly ahead on the flop and betting flop also means we are still last to act on the turn, if we only get called. So we can decide if we want to bluff shove, or seeing 2+ callers and a meh turn just give up.

I understand everyone has PTSD from potting here and getting AI vs. 98 and TT and NFD ... but then fold pre. with low cards and save all the money. Once we get here with 2.5x I think checking just spews our flop equity to the other players.

If we check flop we still reserve the right to jam. One of the issues with betting flop is the potential for nasty turn situations when called. Check may encourage some more marginal hands to get involved here, which is sometimes good for us.

But i think your points are fair, flop is at least close between bet and check, especially with fishy players involved.

This is kind of typical, but still an amazing dynamic.