For some reason, I still don't have the understanding of ranges down. Yes, I've seen videos where people compare two hands on a distribution chart but that's still not making it clear to me.

Here's an example: UTG and HJ fold, CO opens, BTN and SB fold. So, we're HU vs. the BB. Does this mean that I'm automatically comparing the hand I'm holding with what I'd typically expect the BB would have (KT34 or whatever)? If that's the case, I guess I have to memorize the range I'd normally expect from each position, right? Is there chart for that?

Matthew Janda years ago might have been the first to use the phrase "strategy pair."

Let's take a few steps back and see if we can get you on track. And let's use 6-max. What you need to begin with is learning how to open raise from each position. So you are open raising about 19% from EP, 23% from MP, 31% CO, 48% BU and about 35% SB. Now you have a basic positional awareness. Then you start learning how to interact two players into a "strategy pair." You learn how to be the open raiser AND you learn how to be the 3-bettor.

Lower stakes have a lot of limping and multi-way pots, but try to understand the strategy pairs. So in your example of CO vs BB, you want to know how to play from the cutoff and BB.

CO open raises about 31% and if we get 3-bet by the BB then we can 4bet 2.1% of the time and call-the-3bet 24% of the time.

As the BB, if CO open raises and it is folded to us we would 3-bet about 7% and cold call about 24%. And against a 4bet then we 5bet 2.5% and call-the-4bet 1.7%.



I'm old enough to remember when we use to buy something like a piece of software and it was yours forever. But now most things are a subscription model where you pay month after month after month after month after month after month after month. You get my point? I would suggest joining some type of PLO training site for ONLY one month. Make it a month you know you have a lot of free time to study the material and then CANCEL the subscription after the one month. Learn a lot in one month, take tons of note, copy and paste and screen shot stuff for your own personal use and memory (but don't re-distribute someone else's material). You should be able to to find a "strategy pair" chart of the percentages you are looking for. I'm giving my personal opinion, you could watch just about everything of interest for you on a PLO training site in one month, then cancel the subscription and then 6 months to a year later get one month again and that training site had 6 months to a years to make new content worth viewing. But don't get it monthly. Just my opinion.

If you are good at searching the internet, you might be able to piece together a strategy pair chart for free. The open raising ranges are everywhere. The 3-betting are often talked about at least in general terms. And if you open raise and get 3 bet, then you could fold about 30% of your range if the 3-bettor has position on you and if you have position on the 3-bettor then only fold like 20% of your range. And until you find detailed stuff maybe only 5-bet with AAxx.

That right there is pure gold. You just need to fill in the blanks.

So in terms of your overall strategy, you want to compare your range vs villain's range on the board. So we open 30% from CO, BB defends fairly liberally as well but is capped because he is three betting most of his best hands like DS aces.

Anon1, the above is an excellent way to think about it. Most poker syntax simulators uses the "!" to mean "not" therefore in your mind you could think of things something like this

CO (you) open-raise 30%

versus

BB (villain) cold-called 30%!7%

You in the CO opened raised about 30% and the BB in this particular situation happens to also play about 30% but as PokerPlayingGamble said, "is capped" and not playing the top 7% because if the BB had the top 7% of hands he would have 3-bet you. Stakes greatly change the percentages and if at your stake players in the BB cold-call wider but only 3-bet with aces, then change it to something like 45.00%!2.50% or whatever you see fit for your stake for the cold-calling!3-bet percentages.

Going back to my numbers, in this particular situation you will think to yourself that you as the CO and your opponent in the BB both start with about the same 30% but he is missing the best top hands since he didn't 3-bet, therefore you have an advantage overall and that advantage is strongest on most higher card boards.

Search out those percentages for the stakes you play. If you use some type of poker tracker software and have a big database you might be able to see the player tendencies for the players at your stake for open raising, 3betting for different positions, cold-calling, etc. This type of range versus range on this board thinking will help you know which one of you hit this board better. Get those percentages for your stake.

Look at what starting hands you would play from the position they are in and that’s their hypothetical range. It really depends upon the player though.

If you use iPhone, just type „gto plo” key words in appstore

Is it considered capped because he 3 bet you? What if he has DS aces and decides to flat? Is it still considered capped?

Uhh, yeah.

I know what GTO means but I don't have a solver and regardless of that, being fairly new to the game, wouldn't you agree that key concepts are important? It would seem that understanding ranges is a key concept and I'm having trouble with it.

So, ranges are just assumptions then? We're basing what we know we have in our hand vs. what a player in a certain position SHOULD have, right?

In a CO vs. BB, where a king flops, if I have a king in my hand and I assume that my opponent, the BB has one as well (maybe he donk bets top pair), I should assume my king is better - at least most of the time? What about a villain in the BB who defends something like 65-70%? It's a bit harder to narrow down the assumption of what the BB should have then, isn't it?

As far as tracking software is concerned, I use PT4 for at least the basics but I'm sure that it can do more than I'm aware of it. I'll have to dive deeper into it.

In regard to other software and training sites, "Yes, I HATE the subscription model". I'm old enough to remember just buying software too. I get why they do it but it's just too expensive that way. It's the reason that I'll try a a software program, like PLO trainer, for a little while, but will inevitably buy Monker. From what I can tell, PLO trainer is just a Monker overlay with a database of pre-run sims and a randomizer of hands for training - which is fine and I like that, being new, so it will serve my purpose for at least a while.

I'll be joining PLO Mastermind soon. Based on the book and the free content they provide elsewhere (YouTube, Twitch, Discord and their own site), I've learned a lot and like the personalties as well. The reason I'd planned on joining for a little while longer than a month is because they have a few hundred members only training and playing videos, which I really enjoy. I don't think I can get though that much content that quickly but month at a time might be a better idea.

Omaha is a fun game, but with all those cards in your hand, it is also a complex game. And you can start off asking a simple question that can have complex answers. Therefore, I like the keep it simple method. So although I write long posts, I try to keep it simple.

In Omaha you will find many times when there are limping and multi-way pots, but forget about that, let’s keep it simple and heads up. Those two players start off with some type of preflop battle that is a “strategy pair.” Let’s continue to use your example of the Cutoff (CO) and the Big Blind (BB).

Three things can happen for the CO where the hand continues on to the flop. And assume that if the CO 4bets that he isn’t folding to a BB 5 bet. The CO is continuing on in the hand. Remember to keep it simple.

#1 CO open raises
#2 CO 4bets (a BB 3bet)
#3 CO calls-3bet (from the BB)

Four things can happen for the BB.

#1 BB 3bets
#2 BB cold-calls
#3 BB 5bet
#4 BB calls-4bet

I just wrote a lot of words for what seems basic, but it is good to visualize it. That is a preflop strategy pair battle of the possibilities that will have to players end up on the flop. First you need to learn the percentage numbers that those players can have in the situations. And then you have to turn those percentages into actual hands.

In your example the CO open-raised and the BB cold-called (which means the BB didn’t 3-bet so you subtract the BB 3-bet range out). In the games you play the BB’s range might be something like below or it might be tighter or looser, that is up to you to fill in as accurately as you can. So maybe something like 40% cold-call subtracting out and “not” counting the top 5% of hands BB would have 3-bet, so really only play 35%.

30% CO range
versus
40%!5% BB range

First you learn the percentages and then you learn actual ranges. You will need to learn what a 30% range looks like along with all the other ranges to open raise, 3-bet etc. 30% and 40% are a lot of hands and hard to visualize. But 5% is simple enough if you think about it. 5% is going to be mostly strong hands with high cards.

Let’s start with the percentages…

Anon1, if you would like, reply to this post with a several numbers for the CO. Let’s say the CO open raises 30% and another player 3-bets the CO. What is your CO 4bet %? What is your CO calls-3bet percentage if you are out of position to the 3bettor? What is your CO calls-3bet percentage if you are in position to the 3bettor? Re-read post #3 for a hint on the calls-3bet percentages. And you can give me a single 4bet percentage or an in & out of position number.

Anon1, I want you to fill in all the question marks (?). It is no big deal if you get it wrong. The rest of us will try to help you fill in the numbers correctly for your stake level. I play a different stake level than you and the players I play against are most likely 3-betting at a higher percentage than your stake. Therefore, your 4-bet numbers will likely be different from mine. Let’s keep it simple. I just made this chart in a spreadsheet for being the open raiser. Then later we will do the chart for facing an open raise. With those two charts you will have the percentages for ranges. After that is done you then have to turn percentages into actual hands to play. It is a lot of steps, but once it is done you will have a fundamentally sound preflop game plan. IP means "in position." OP means "out of position." 4B means "4bet." C3B means "call a 3bet."

Like I said, I can’t give you the 4-bet percentages for your stake level. I could give you the calls-3bet numbers, but I want you to see if you can figure it out. Here is the method, if you open raise and get 3 bet, then you fold 30% of your range if the 3-bettor has position on you and if you have position on the 3-bettor then only fold 20% of your range.

Give me the “?” answers. You can just give me the CO numbers if you want.

Anon1, since we are in different time zones and you haven't read my posts yet, I thought I'd clean up my chart and make it a little easier to read. See if you can fill in the "?" marks. F3B means "fold to a 3bet %." Round all your numbers to the nearest .50% so for example if you are 4betting only AAxx then put it in as 2.50%.

I had a hard time with this. After figuring out how to display % by position in PT4, I still couldn't manage to have it show F3B and C3B and whether it IP or OP, so I just put the same numbers shown for C3B without the differentiator. It was frustrating. The stats I used was for everything this month, because I figured it would be a more accurate picture of where I currently was.

I don't know if it matters or not but my overall stats are 28.3 / 14.3 / 5.8 and I'm probably WAY overfolding to steals in the SB and BB. Fold to steal SB is 82% and fold to steal BB is 33.5%. With those stats, I'm guessing that I'm not defending the BB and SB enough or should be 3 betting more? Remember the post of mine where we were talking about raise or fold from the SB? We're folding almost everything except the top 7-12% of hands? I took that to heart and am working on getting better.

Thank you again, I really do appreciate it.






Below is from PT4 and the positions from top to bottom: MP, CO, SB, BTN, EP, BB

[IMG][/IMG]

Excellent. Now comes the fun stuff. There are a lot of people on the forum that are good at looking and stats and seeing areas for improvement. Hopefully lots of people will stop by and post their thoughts on your stats.

I haven't use PT in a long time and different trackers will sometimes use similar phrase in a slightly different way. But everyone here will try and get your stats straight. Also in the software section most of the tracker software makers have their own threads. just get in the habit of reading the PT4 thread everyday to maybe pick up some extra insight into how it works. Also read any type of PT4 guide or index. Filters play a huge role in being able to display the exact information you want from a tracker. Just like you have to learn how to play poker, you have to learn how to use the tracker to get the most out of it.

Also percentages can be a bit confusing. For example, if you open raise from EP 18% of the time. And you 4-bet 6% of the time. I wrote it as 6%, but some program might write it as you 4-bet 1/3 or 33% of the time. You have to see and understand how things might be written in different percentages by different people.

Now I'm going to look at the stats you wrote and see what I see that is on track or off track. And hopefully many other posters take a look at your stats too. Also you said you used this month stats to get a better understanding of where you are now. I don't know how many hands you play in a month, but sometimes the smaller single month stat numbers can be messed up because you haven't played enough hands in certain situations to get a large enough sample size for the number to be accurate. So it can be okay to use a large sample going back months too, even if you changed your game in some way. You will know where you have changed things. For example, even with the numbers you posted, at lower stakes so many hand have limpers and multiway pots, that if you filtered out to only headsup up pots, you might have a very small sample size. This is the first post I'm mentioning filters and I think some of the data you supplied might not be filtered for headsup.

I was hoping you'd show me the stats in the chart and what they should be. I'd be more interested in what a typical TAG players stats should be at the higher levels. I'm assuming that along with experience, higher level TAGS are playing closer to GTO?

Yes, I'll gladly fill in the chart. But context is important. I'm about to go get something to eat, but will be back later. I had filled in the "fold to 3bet" percentage and was about to post it. This isn't me purposefully leaving out stuff, I was just going to discuss it point by point so you understood it better. Since I already uploaded this let's just start there. See how you multiply your open raise percentage by 20% to fold in position and by 30% to fold out of position. Many people don't fold to a 3bet at all and some over fold. The fold 20% in position and fold 30% out of position to a 3bet are a good keep it simple method. At micro stakes since the rake is so high, you might need to fold a little bit higher. But this is still a good general idea of you to play ranges.

I'll fill in the rest and post again after I get something to eat. Just remember the rest is very subjective. If the players at your stake don't 3bet much, then you can NOT 4bet much which in term increases your call a 3 bet number. The numbers are all related.

First off, be careful. Me just filling in the chart doesn’t mean you are going to easily understand the numbers. There is a lot to understand and not all of it has to do with my chart. For example, in PT4, the phrase “4B” and the phrase “4B%” might have different meanings. I could write a chart and use 18% and 6%, but in PT4, instead of it saying 6% it might say 33% and we both are saying the same thing because 6% is 33% of 18%. Having tracking software is very helpful, but you have to know how to use it and what all the names mean and how to filter the information. What I am giving you is a chart of 6-max where only 2 players entered the pot. Most hands at micro stakes and mid stakes are multi-way, therefore in your tracker you will need to filter for headsup to accurately match the chart I posted.

Now onto the chart for mid stakes. It is numbers, but being able to fully understand the number is important. For example, how many hands as a percentage is AAxx (not counting AAAx & AAAA)? It is 2.50%. Now look at the chart. The 4betting out of position numbers are all above 2.50% and in a keep it simple method that means you are 4 betting all of your AAxx hands plus some other hands. Now look at the 4betting in position numbers for EP, MP and CO. Those number are under 2.50% which means in position your aren’t 4betting all of your AAxx hands. Almost everyone on the planet when they get AAxx is open-raising and then re-raising with every AAxx. In position you can call a 3 bet with some AAxx hands thereby strengthening your calling range and being a lot tougher to play against.

These numbers are important, but being able to read the number is important. And so is being able to correctly read your stats from your tracker. There use to be a “Check My Stats” 2+2 thread that was very popular years ago. If you found and bumped that thread or posted new threads where in the title you included the words “check my stats” I’m guessing you would get lots of helpful advice.

I grayed out the fold to 3bet numbers because those are the hands we don't continue on to the flop. The open raising, 4betting and calling a 3bet percentages make up 19 different ranges. If you were to learn and understand those 19 ranges you would be the best player in your game for the times you open raised. I'm not saying it is easy, but I am saying that is the foundation for the "strategy pair" when you are the open raiser. And these numbers also work for instance when there are open limpers. For example, if EP open-limps and you are in MP, then isolation raise one position tighter than your current position, therefore you would isolation raise with your EP range.

That is how to understand and use the ranges.

Thank you for all of this information. I saved the chart to my desktop and I have my "Ladybruin SPR chart" (that's what I named it) on my desktop as well for reference when I play. Remember the thread where it was on page 29 of the Hwang book? I didn't find it there, so I used what you posted just the same.

I think I'm starting to get the hang of the hand ranges but overall, I'm still wrestling with it. For instance, if someone doesn't 3 bet you, AA hands get eliminated. Since we can eliminate AA, does that mean that their range is "capped" to kings and below? What about the possibility of them having a single ace? We can't say that they don't have an ace at all though. What about other positions? For instance, EP folds, we raise in MP, the CO calls and everyone else folds. Since the CO just called and 3-bet, we really don't know what to put him on, so we don't know his range?

Is "uncapped range" another way of simply saying "I don't know what this person has?" Is being at "the top of my range" meaning something like I have "KKQJ pre and regardless of what may flop or postflop play, I'm at the top of my range, because I can't flop higher than a king? if Axx hits the board on the flop, the absolute top of my range is still kings, regardless of what it may turn into (sets, straights, flushes, etc..)?

On YouTube, I watch a lot of PLO videos and it doesn't matter if it's JNandez or Galfond, range is almost always discussed - "I'm at the top of my range", "his range is capped", "he's at the top of his range" etc.

Now that I've babbled all of that, ranges and comparing them simply gives us a better picture of what we have and of what our opponent might or probably has and we further narrow it down by comparing what's in our hand and the blockers it contains?

I think this topic has gotten detailed and advanced without covering basics first.

1) Since we can never know what hand our opponent is actually holding, it is more practical and reliable to consider all his possible holdings in a given situation. These possible holdings are a SET (mathematical) of hands as a subset of all possible (dealt) hands. Because the set can be odered by absolute handstrength, it is called RANGE. This emphasizes the idea of a continuum going from your weakest hands (BOTTOM of RANGE) to strongest hands (TOP of RANGE). Just like our opponents we also REPRESENT a range of hands in any given situation, even though we know our current holding.

2) Normally any action a player does NARROWS his range, because he is not doing this same action with all of his hands everytime. The hands he doesn't do it with then stop being part of his range.
Preflop example: Before any action has taken place the ranges of every single player at the table are 100%, because they can be holding any of the possible 4card combinations. If a tight player now opens UTG it narrows his range from 100% to ~18% (exact number and composition depends on the player). Again, we do not know how the range looks like, but we can make some educated guesses and imagine that the player has many AA, KK, ABBX, ds rundowns and other high quality hands in his range, but folds junk.

Every decision point changes every players range. Ranges can only get narrower, it's not possible to hold a hand on the river that has been folded preflop.

3) Let's go on with the example: Suppose the BTN is GTO lover and decides to 3bet the UTG player. This narrows his range from 100% to ~4%. And even though the BTN is a GTO freak and has a balanced 3bet range, the relation from AA to non AA hands as part of his range changes dramatically. Thus the BTN's ranges becomes WEIGHTED towards AA.

4) Expanding on this. let's suppose the UTG player decides to call. This action excludes most AA combos from the UTG players range (because he is expected to 4bet AA). It means the top of his range doesn't include the very best possible hands. His range is CAPPED.

5) Let's say the flop comes AJ3 two spades. AA is the nuts and UTG is almost never holding it, while BTN has it really often. Both players can have JJ, but UTG probably a bit more, both players are unlikely to hold 33. Thus BTN has the nuts a lot more often than UTG, giving him the POLARITY advantage.
Even the times, when BTN does not have topset, he still often has TPGK or a flushdraw. In fact it's rare for him to have a low equity hand on the board. UTG on the other hand should be folding a lot hands that make TP preflop and is left with very few high equity hands. The best of which are AJ, JJ, and combodraws. Thus BTN also has a noticable RANGE ADVANTAGE (equity of BTN's range vs equity of UTG's range).

Wow! That's awesome! Thank you!

My only question is if we say that a person has an "uncapped" range, does it really mean that we don't know what our opponent is holding?

Here's a scenario I'll reference about uncapped range.

The scenario is this: MP is RFI, BTN calls and we call in the BB with AdKcJc6s.
The flop is 6c2c2s MP bets, BTN calls and we check raise. MP calls, button folds. Turn is 4c, giving us the 2nd nut flush on a small, paired board. We check.

A guy in the comments session says that if we block bet 1/4 pot on the turn, rather than checking, it keeps us "uncapped". (Presumably from keeping our opponent narrowing down our actual holdings or hand range further)? Phil responded but if you want to read or watch, here's the link. It's a free video but you have to sign in to watch it.

https://www.runitonce.com/poker-trai...m-plo-session/

Unless we are using a hack, we never know what our opponents are holding. Wether they are capped or uncapped has no relation to this. All the math, solver work and whatever else we are using, in the end we always have to GUESS what our opponents range looks like. Showdowns and HUD stats are imo the best sources to get an idea.

Uncapped only means that a range includes hands that make the nuts on the current board. Nothing more, nothing less

I feel that question and answer ist about two different things.
At any given time there are two ranges in play. Hero's actual range, where only Hero knows how it really looks like. Opposed to this Hero has a PERCIEVED range, which is what Villain thinks Hero's range to be. Percieved ranges are very often and rightfully so influenced by population tendencies.

The guy who's asking the question thinks that Hero is never or only very rarely checking the turn with 66, 22, 62, Acc, 24 and 44. So in accordance to prior definitions Hero's percieved range becomes capped and he suggests doing a small rangebet to fix this.

Phil points out, that there is a different fix. Being obesessed with balance and all that, his actual range does check those hands a decent amount of the time, so even if Villain percieves Hero to be capped, he really is not.

That's an excellent response. It makes sense. Thank you again.

Anon1, this has been a good thread. Your original question was about ranges and mostly a flop question, but hopefully since we took it back to preflop you understand what people could have in their ranges. And Caterina did a great job of explaining how that relates to the flop.

In Hold'em, the preflop chart can be displayed in a 13 x 13 chart with only 169 possibilities. But Omaha is so huge that you have to know what is in a 18% range or if someone didn't 3bet, then what is in a 30%!8% range. The more you play the more you will see it in your mind. There will be times you can eliminate AAxx from someone's range. And there will also be times when you know they probably have AAxx or atleast many ace+broadway cards suited. The likelihood of someone having an ace can be greatly narrowed down when re-raising starts.

Anon1, you are on the right track. You might have just wanted to know what that phrase "uncapped range" meant, but I hope you got a whole lot more.