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Originally Posted by NMcNasty
Even against the exact hands that we do bad on the flop against, we probably still have odds to call a blank turn. The BB will be shoving in for 1/4 of the pot. But just generally, call flop, fold turn is a HORRENDOUS line with this hand. BB villain is a shortstack just getting it in, CO is a limp/caller who's calling on a low board. Either villain can have anything.
Those are just a couple examples of hands we're doing not great against. Some other ones would be wraps with higher flush draws, sets with higher flush draws, 2 pairs with higher flush draws. I don't think we can make too many conclusions about fuzzy ranges, but we can draw from the action that the initial bettor has something made because he donks pot and the caller likely has a draw because he just called. If he has a draw its likely that it dominates our draw, so we can discount either our flush or straight outs and sometimes both and are now counting on one of our draws being good, but it isn't good enough to get stacks in on its own. Our hand is deceptively weak here, especially given action.
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I mean it doesn't really matter then, we're getting value from that garbage. Point is we aren't giving free cards.
You can at least make an argument that call/call is a better line than shoving as an alternative way to getting it in (I would disagree), but acting like our hand is just too weak generally to get it in is completely ludicrous with these stack sizes.
I dont think we get value from much, it's really a marginal spot and I don't like it. If anything we should be getting to a cheap showdown here and a bet and a call has destroyed that option for us.
As for action given, I agree if you're going to get it in shove. Calling is not as good