So, these last few days have been very frustrating for me and I'm really trying to figure out what to do here, aside from getting more frustrated or tilting more.

My stakes are .05/.10 and .15/30. To start with, a very large part of the players at my level are playing a VPIP of anywhere from 50-90 VPIP (something like 60/30 is probably typical), while my stats range roughly 28/14/3.

I've been reading and watching videos and all of them say that at the lower levels, don't limp in, due to the rake. The problem here, is that there's basically zero fold equity and regardless of how solid the hands are that I'm playing (AKQJ, AKK3, AKKT, etc...), Typically, I'm playing a multiway pot with players who're more or less playing bingo. Honestly, I feel like I either have to flop the nuts or fold. I've tried tightening up and loosening up but the results have been basically the same.

I remember reading a post from one of the threads where someone said that you're really letting your opponents own you, when they can limp whenever and you're only raising with premiums. Even with raising non premiums, if there's no fold equity, it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Essentially, what I'm getting to, is limping at low stakes.

Why shouldn't a limping strategy be incorporated if there's almost always a multiway pot with basically zero fold equity? The pot always seems to get large enough anyway and it feels like it would save a bit of cash, in the cases where I don't hit the board hard. Additionally, as a noob, hand reading is a lot harder at bingo.

I just saw another thread very similar to this one and tried to delete this post but I can't find where to do that.

I am navigating the micros as well and have thought about this same question.

I think you are not wrong about trying to flop the nuts, but that's simply because in multiway pots even your best hand will always have 25-40 equity, which means there will be a lot of variance to realising your preflop equity.

That means you should still raise, by doing so you push that little post flop edge while your opponent are spewing away with subpar hands.

You then play tight post flop and only stick around when you hit the flop reasonably hard. Because you're much tighter than your opponent they will end up with sucker draws and set below yours.

What you don't want to happen is to flop big and have small pot to play with.

Additionally, if your opponents have such high vpip then you should try and figure out which thin value bets you can make, especially try to check the river little to extract some thin value and never call on the river, these guys will stick around with improbable gutshot and are usually fairly passive, so when they bet or rais get out of the way unless you are the favorite.

There is nothing wrong with over limping certain hands that favour playing at a high SPR.

Poker playing, what would be the typical hand you'd play for a limp, or classes of hands? Double gapper?

k Depending on position, let's say EP limps, MP calls and I'm in the CO or BTN (As you know, EP limp and MP call is quite common at the micro stakes. Seeing as there is still the button and both blinds after me, something like KK78 ss or ds to the K or maybe even QQT7.

To me, that's a limp, because the Kings have set value and the 78 would somewhat block hands like J789, which would surely call multiway and the KK has blockers for the broadway high end. At the same time, I don't think the hand is strong enough to raise two limpers and of course, the others behind me. I'd hate to get a lot of money invested just to have someone with a hand like A756, flop A7.

As far as the QQT7 ss to the queen or ds has potential as well, as it has blockers for the middle straight and the QQ to block higher end / broadway straights. To me, QQT7 isn't strong enough to raise in a multiway pot with basically no fold equity but it's still a hand that has potential.

On the rundowns on the middle / lower end in the CO with something like JT96 or QT96 ss or ds with two limpers, would be a limp for me. I know that's very likely a fold to an EP limper and MP caller but on a low or middle board flop, I might have an advantage over people who have broadway hands (KK, QQ or even AA). While I know it's speculative hand and it isn't strong enough to raise, I'm kind of working under the pot odds in PLO, even though pot odds are are supposed to be a fallacy.

From another thread on here, someone pointed out that limping isn't a "thing" in 6 max. Still, with multiple callers and virtually no fold equity, I want to limp more, with hands like I've mentioned. As far as the rake being high, the pot always seems to grow large enough pre and post flop anyway.

It's also been pointed out that limpers aren't limping to fold to a single raise, they're limping because they want to see a flop and will call a raise. This makes things incredibly difficult when you have 2 or 3 players in with stats like 58/40 or 68/30 or higher. With those stats, they're playing bingo and even IP or OOP or me, it's a minefield, unless I really hit the flop hard.

Another thing is that since I'm a noob, my post flop skills aren't great, to say the least. In a raised pot, even with a strong hand, and multiple players behind me, being lost as to what to do or how much to bet or when to float is a hard decision and with such a poor postflop skill set, I'm much more comfortable playing lowball and limping more. Now, after I gain more confidence and postflop skills, I'd be more apt to raise pre and not limp.

Anyway, sorry to have written an essay but that's kind of where I'm at with the micros.

Interesting enough, I havn't had as much frustration and I'm in a similar position, I'm learning PLO and re-learning poker as whole for a little bit over a month. I hadn't played basically since Black Friday.

But I do still understand your confusion and difficulty, and now that I see that in someone else, I feel the answer is actually quite simple, we need to play better postflop. Which is what I'm studying ATM.

I do think that limping behind is a bad, specially with those KKxx QQxx when they are DS or SS to the Q or K, so, I will still raise that hand, because if it goes 3-ways it's actually better than going 5-ways, specially with the button.

If we limp behind, we might as well do so with QQxx rainbow, but if it goes 5 ways our suits are much more likely to be dominated by Aragxx suited to the A.

So, because we can still hit super strong flushes, we would like them to be alive as often as possible, and sure, navigating post-flop with the 3rd nut flush gets tricky and we're all making mistakes, but the recreational player is probably making even MORE mistakes.

The takeaways I can share so far from the limp-fests and MW fiestas is:

- Play Tight and very aggressive preflop, opponents are calling 100% of their range, which is like 80% of hands, so we can 3bet a lot more for value.
- Bet for VALUE super thin; top and bottom/middle set which are hands that solver wouldn't bet because they usually get called by better or they can't handle x/r lines, that's not the case here. Opponents are not finding enough x/r.
- Bet as a BLUFF less in general, you need a lot of blockers and even then your opponent is likely to call with hands they are not supposed to when you run pure bluffs.
- We can simplify FOR NOW because this could be dangerous in the future: BLUFF only with "Semi-Bluffs", pair + gutshut + BDFD kind of hands.
- Include hands that can make the nuts or the second nuts depending on board by the river when you bet for value, opponents are just not folding enough.
- Check more in general, even we poker students don't do it enough. We are not always giving up the pot when we do so, and opponents are likely to turn their hand face up with their action + sizing. (Mainly applies to traditional tables)

Patience, discipline, study.

It's hard, and each of us has to decide if we love the game enough to put in that work.

I think to limp in with some weak Kings doesnt sound a great idea to me. KK is a weak hand multiway and it's going to have tons of equity on a few flops and very little on most. Basically you want to thin the field and hit top set. Even one less opponent is good. Usually you can get the BB or sb to fold, while most limpers will come along.

What you don't want is to end up in a five way, small pot, where you hit a set and you get 3 people calling a pot sized bet virtually guaranteeing any draw that completes will be there. What you'd like is to instead flop top set on a middle spr scenario where you can get it in or almost on the flop when two pairs and draws are basically committed to come along.

Raising with many people in is actually a good investment I would say: if you raise the pot and 3 or 4 people call you are getting the best possible odd to hit your set and the pot will be large on the flop.

That's how I think about it and it might not be the right way to think about it since I'm a noob, so any comment on this line of reasoning are welcome.

If you really want to improve your game I suggest you find a coaching product that you like and can afford. The way you beat really bad opponents, or anyone really, is playing solid poker. This is a very broad awnser to your question though. In order for you to play solid poker you must learn and study the game so you can identify mistakes in others people play and exploit them. If I was playing on a loose game like you said I would focus on playing big hands in position. Yes, there are hands that are better limping than raising from early position, but the game is much more complex than just trying to hit top set on the flop, especially out of postion against many wide ranges.

I'd add that when you're running bad, the issues you're talking about are exasebated. Its really annoying raising pot, premium hand after premium hand and completely missing every flop and then wondering what the point of raising was when you knew it would go 5 way and you just boosted the pot for guy #4 who called with 559J and flopped a boat.

However... there are going to be sessions where you're hitting these flops more often than not and on those days, in between stacking up piles and piles of chips you're going to be wondering how these guys keep thinking their ass end straights and 9 high flushes are good when you keep pot betting them with the nuts.

Bravo.

This is exactly was I was referring before as to why raising for Value is so profitable.

But like you said, if you are running poorly it might feel self-defeatist to inflate pots when you can't hit anything.

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At the same time, it's really hard to know (as a beginner) if you are running bad or not, so while I do agree that best plays become harder to make when you run bad, you should always consider the simplest fact, we are playing bad.

So yeah, don't get discouraged, in my little experience, PLO is just a crazy degenerate game, I personally love it but the bad can be really bad and the good can be really good. So, patience is a must.

OP, if you want to start any form of study group, or if you are already part of one, I would love to join you on discord, or help start a group.

Let me know if you might be interested. Mutual support can go a long way when the game is this swingy and complex.

Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Viggie's point of raising premiums and missing every flop but watching the boat is 559J hits home hard and those are the kinds of situations that I frequently get frustrated with and find difficult.

In regard to raising KK78 and playing against three people and then five, sure, a raise could be put in but then, the SB and BB might just call anyone, thinking that they have pot odds.

As far as the study group goes or starting one, I'm not involved in either one. In case you haven't seen it, Inky has a group on Twitch and it's good, so you might want to watch that. I don't know what discord is.

I'm guessing that you're in Michigan? If you're playing .05/.10 and .15/.30 on Stars, we've almost certainly played against each other.

No. Not a US Citizen, Black Friday happened a weird spot in my life, so it just pushed me out of poker.

Playing on Euro sites atm

If a hand is going to win enough on average, why wouldn't you want the pot to be bigger?

If the hand is not good enough to make a profit raising and getting called, then it isn't good enough to make a profit limping and getting raked a bigger %.