Hello All,

We are playing Full ring Live Casino 1/3 PLO with a permanent 6 straddle on...$100-500 cap buyin..
Hero is in for $450 but down to $200 after 30 minutes on a few whiffs on raised pots and folds...Hero then triples thru to $630ish when he gets his Ah2hAs6s allin preflop in a 4 bet pot vs 6789ds and 91010J with the board running out 8JQKKhhh.
Both players reload (Villain 1 + another reg) for $500 and this is the very next hand...
Villain 1 (SB)Oz 50's tightish, usually shoves middle/top set..shortstacked with $200ish
Villain 2 (UTG)Asian 30's loose splashy can be a big winner or loser on any given night..reads the play fairly well....$500
Villain 3 (UTG +2) Asian 30's The draw king....any draw will put it allin...likes the low cards and suited ace....$500


I am hero (tightish rock... easy to read...not too much gambool...relies on players making mistakes with inferior hands..avg 10bb per hr winner)usual comment from other players is "lemme guess nuts with nut redraw? when calling my bets"
OTB for this hand with J10J5
Villain 1 makes it $20 to go and he is called in 6 places (i have the button so im calling to see the flop)...

POT $120
FLOP 789

Villain 1 leads out pot $120..
Villain 2 repots allin $480
Villain 3 instacall $480..

I look at at villain 1 who has already got his chips ready to shove his remaining $80...

To recap i just won the prev hand and to call would cost me most of my stack.

While i have the current nuts, i have absolutely no redraws and figure half the deck kills me (any 7 8 9 10 J Q, any d, running spades, etc)
I have no blockers apart from a single J but someone may have the same exact hand and freerolling flush draw or sets..

If it was shortstack only or 1 player only that i was up against i would call...
But do you call in a 4 way pot and pray....or fold and wait until a better opportunity presents given that i currently only have $20 invested in the pot..

If the flop was QKA and i have the 10J ....different scenario again...

Is this really an instacall as presented?

Results later...

Well the thing that makes me pause is that even though you have 2 jacks, you might be splitting the pot here. I know the other players could have a wide range but at best your ahead by very little and you could just be playing at a split pot. I would fold if I wasn't such an action donk. If you showed up to gamble than ship it!
I think a fold is not a bad play at all with this board.

If by chance you're up against a set, a flush draw and someone with QJT* you're in bad shape.

If you're just up against a set, flush draw and who knows what else, you're still only winning around 1/3 of the time (little better if they don't connect with the suits I think).

Granted those are some pretty specific combinations for the 3 players involved, but based on your assessments, its hard to think that people are shipping with worse. You might have one player sitting with a bare JT as well, but since neither of your suits connect with the flop, its hard to think that they don't have at least a back door flush draw.

With so much action in the pot and two streets to come, I don't think folding is the wrong move. It sucks to fold the "nuts" but its only the nuts right now, and I'm not sure I see profit in getting it in here. Perhaps some guys who are better with numbers can assess the profitability of the situation.

Yeah, I agree about half the cards in the deck kill your hand. You have to dodge them twice. I can see folding here if I was in the situation.

What if you were at the opposite end, if you had something like 99TAdd, would you fold, call or push?

-d

Strictly in terms of equity, AddT99 is the best hand you can have on this flop, outclassing even QJT+dd (and even edging AddQJT against most groups of strong ranges). Wouldn't fold that.

SPR is too low to lay this down. And I'll take 99JdTd.

While i wont give the results just yet....

one of the 20 year "pros" at the table said to me after the hand...."You might as well leave now while you still have money" laughing hard...sad panda face

and yes i have shoved top set and nut flush draw (on the turn for $200) in the past into a possible str8.....but then i had significantly more money invested preflop (raised pot $25 and got 3 callers) and flop..(check called $85 on flop)
ie A10A9 shipped turn on a flop of 458A lost that one to the old 67xx when i bricked but that was also player dependant.
Thats when SPR to me becomes important as i had already invested $110 pre and post as opposed to the hand in question where i only have $20 invested

General consensus is encouraging tho that its not a huge leak.

SPR should not be your sole determining factor for whether or not you put your money in the middle, especially when we are multiway. Need numbers and some ranges to back up that we can win the required amount of time to make this a profitable call, based on the SPR.

This is a situation that the older omaha books use to discuss all the time. Getting your stack in against multiple opponents when you have no chance of improving, short of a runner runner miracle that connects with your JJ somehow.

There are much better spots to get it in, where the variance will be a lot lower. Personally, I choose those spots over what I would consider a very likely break even over the long term scenario.

AddT99 is better than that too in this spot.

I'd suggest stacking off. It's a fold against three nitty ranges of hands that are top-tier on this flop, but all three players seem like they can have hands that are 'pretty good but not great', especially V1 who only has $200, which is enough for you to go with it.

While I don't disagree with you. Intuitively it seemed like the best non made hand to me. How did you arrive at this without knowing the opponents hands or are you just making assumptions?

-d

Thanks all for their comments...
End result.....
Obviously i decided to tank fold only having $20 personally invested in the pot..


Villain 1 in SB does go allin with his remaining $80..

Board runs out 78928

When the board pairs i smile and go yes...i think i have escaped a bad beat by not calling but then...

Villain 1 has 5679 for the idiot str8, str8 flush draw and top and bottom 2 pair...nope no good

Villain 2 has 610108 x ...2nd nut straight with a blocker to the nut str8, he didnt think anyone would have 10J so he shoved.....scoopdalotta pot close to $1450 ish

Villain 3 has just the nut flush draw A2 and sweet **** all else....but ship it in he did and he missed....nope no good...footnote...he then went on a heater and hit every goddamm flush draw for the next 2 hours...usually runner runner and picked up 2k!

I then tell the table i folded the 10JJ, the winner chastises me for not going allin, the pro calls me a moron and to leave while i have chips....Alls well that ends well i chip up a little bit and leave as the game just started to get too big and gambooley.

No money in PLO Pros are solid.

Where is this game again?

A good reason no to divulge your hands lol.

It is hit or miss in this type of situation. You're going player dependent for your decision I think.

we aren`t talking about elite players so folding immediately seems questionable.

Ok tight SB felt in love w/ SFD, V2 prolly has some fishy perception or SB thus could iso lighter with naked 2nd straight which doesn`t seem great either.

I assigned following Pokerjuice ranges postflop:
V1 - JT,65+: (dd,97+),dAd: ((JJ,TT): (9,8,7),87+,QT+),99: (T,JJ)
v2 - JT,TT6,65+: (dd:Kd+,77+),dAd: ((TT): (9,8,7),[J,T]: (87,97,98),77+,QT+),99
v3 - JT,65+: (dd:Ad,77+),T6+: (dd:Kd,77+),dAd: (98+,QJ),99

So we need 27% assuming SB nevr folds and have 31% for +$65 call which seems decent in 1/3 game.
When we don`t have JJ but some JT54 hand we only have 26% and it becomes -$22 call - we should fold.

Or we need JT54:ss (w/ BD) for +$30 call.
Same with JTT5.

So yeah holding JJ makes difference 4way.

This is a classic example of low stakes players thinking. What was your post flop plan? Were you hoping to flop a set on an otherwise dry board? You have to think your flush draws are pretty slim when 6 people go to the flop. Which is pretty common in a 9 handed low stakes PLO type setting. My advice for any low stakes PLO player is to think ahead and about the different scenarios associated with board textures. This is a very common leak among live low stakes players. Playing poor hand combinations without a plan in multiway pots can lower EV exponentially over time. Good luck in the future.

P.S. Try not to tell people you fold the nuts. Bad for your image at the table. lol

OP has a problem I see in myself a lot. Playing for more than I feel comfortable losing combined with assigning opponents the strongest possible ranges.

I figured out I was playing for more than I should when I rebuy, and see how scared my money gets. If I can't put my buyin on 17 at the roulette table, I probably shouldn't be putting down in a poker game.

naked nut flush draw isn't really a bad hand on this board multiway, when you can expect people to be getting it in with straights. the more people that get it in the better off the flush draw is. A flush draw usually has around 35-40% equity against a made straight depending on whether all your cards are live or not.

lul wut? TIL putting buyin on 17 at roulette = sitting down with a buyin at a poker tabke.

OP You're giving a lot of completely superfluous info in your post. It's annoying to read.

Your hand blocks hands you chop with. When you get in 4way you only need 25% equity (or similar depending on sizes) so all this thinking about dodging half the deck is not accurate. If you block the nuts, that means your opponents are more likely to share each other's outs, making getting it in much better.

Also that was REALLY weird that you acted like getting in with a naked NFD there is really bad. It's just so weird that you're implying someone is playing poorly when you clearly played the hand worse. It's okay to not be experienced, but jeez, learn some humility and don't berate other players.

having JJ matters here.

i don't actually hate a fold if losing will mess up your day but pretty sure 4-way your equity is well over 25%. again, the JJ matters.

basically if you need the money for rent, you should fold. if it's whatever then the best play is to just ship it.

Against a random JT and T6 a nut FD with nothing else has 32.7% equity. If you change the T6 to 99 you're at 24.7%.

Against the actual hands the NFD only had 21% 3-way and 22% 4-way.

So yeah, cold-calling a jam with a bare NFD is definitely terrible.

That is certainly smarter than calling and then mucking!

What does that have to do with anything?

This is basically the correct thinking (blockers aren't tremendously important, if their bets say they have something, they have something.)

Pretty standard fold here. Next hand.

Don't tell the table anything at all. Especially that, and especially when you have a too tight image. And the "pro" sounds like a moron, unless he was just trying to bolster his own image.

"Just" a strong draw to the nuts, which was something your hand was lacking in. He had somewhere to go, you didn't. Clearly the nut flush draw should always be getting it in here. Part of the reason is that flushes can't be shared, but that is just part of the reason.

See my post above.... a bare nut flush draw is anything but a clear GII... particularly when 1/2 of his money is going into a main pot that is currently only HU.

If he knew OP was calling then it might be fine but without knowing that it's a clear fold.