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2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep 2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep

06-26-2019 , 10:10 AM
I have no HUD, so I cannot give you stats on the players in the hand. Just general 2PLO population reads.

Questions:
Should I be folding flop?
Should I be betting river?

My own thoughts:

Pre: I have ~15-20% VPIP, struggling to find profitable hands, I play the medium pocketpairs, if I like the sidecards and/or position preflop action. Here I thought, the limper is usually weak and I got position on the raiser + the BB discount.

Flop: Super dry flop + preflop raiser checking, makes this an autobet for me. I only have two sizings: half pot for paired boards and pot for the rest. That's not optimal for sure, but seems to work out just fine right now.
Don't like the raise, dry board, so villain shouldn't be semibluffing like at all and chances are he has QQ, but then I thought, QQ would often lead and 22, maybe Q2, Q7 (but he shouldn't have that many) are the hands that x/r. Also we are pretty deep, so he shouldn't commit too easily.
I was really confused and opted to call. Should I be folding?

Turn: I think, once I call flop, I gotta call turn too, QQ has me crushed ofc, but other than that the 5 doesn't really change anything.

River:
The river check is so weird. I feel like it is a way ahead way behind situation. Since I thought, he might have some two pair type hands that just made a better full, i opted to check behind. I think, we had about one PSB left, so really not much room for bet/folding. Is this missing out on value or would a bet be too thin? I'm trying to valuebet more and am often surprised what people find calls with, especially, when the pot is large.

PokerStars Zoom, Omaha Pot Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $2.89 (145 bb)
MP: $2.16 (108 bb)
CO: $1.86 (93 bb)
BU: $2.14 (107 bb)
SB: $7.67 (384 bb)
BB (Hero): $7.38 (369 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with 4 7 7 5
UTG calls $0.02, 3 players fold, SB raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.24) 7 Q 2 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.23, UTG folds, SB raises to $0.92, Hero calls $0.69

Turn: ($2.08) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $2.01, Hero calls $2.01

River: ($6.10) Q (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $6.10 (Rake: $0.20)

Showdown:
SB shows A 8 A 9 (two pair, Aces and Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 62%, Flop: 13%, Turn: 15%, River: 0%)

BB (Hero) shows 4 7 7 5 (a full house, Sevens full of Queens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 38%, Flop: 87%, Turn: 85%, River: 100%)

BB (Hero) wins $5.90
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
06-27-2019 , 12:39 PM
Folding pre - but looking at how bad villains played, it might be +EV to just play any hand.

Rip Turn as you are essentially going to call any ways if he jams river. You just realize your equity immediately instead of letting him to decide what cards to bet and you are going to hate half the deck.

I wouldn't over think too much. You're playing NL2 and most people just don't care about $6. Just get good hands and bet them. Most of them just log in on there phone or what ever at a bar and click buttons.
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
06-29-2019 , 02:22 PM
If the action had folded to SB, I think you could call preflop, though maybe not with PLO2 rake. Given that you have UTG to think about, this leans more towards a fold, but I'm not 100% sure.

"I only have two sizings: half pot for paired boards and pot for the rest."

PLO is a very complex game so I have no problem with people simplifying some things in practice, but this is too simple and not especially productive. Half-pot is too much for a lot of paired boards, and pot is definitely going to be too much on average for "the rest".

This flop is actually a great example. This is not a flop to bet pot on, especially multiway. It's almost a picture-perfect example of a disconnected rainbow flop. It's dry as a desert, so size down. Nobody can be stronger here than a set (with, like, no redraws other than to FH/quads, right?), but if you're betting pot you're putting yourself in a situation where your opponents' ranges are stronger than you really want them to be: they become much more QQ-heavy, especially when they raise. (Though, in theory I think they should be check/calling QQ due to how dry the flop is. But this is PLO2 and I would not automatically assume villain is playing that way.)

If you size down, you get unblocked Qx combos to call more often. That's a good thing.

Facing the flop x/r... I don't know. It should be a very QQ-heavy range. QQ is certainly more likely than 22 with them raising out of the SB after UTG limped, and this is a strange line for KK+ or non-QQ Qxxx. Qxxx should be betting to deny equity and KK+ should probably be betting for value.

But "should" at PLO2 is maybe not super relevant.

On the turn, if you're calling flop you don't have much reason to fold. I disagree with raising, though: villain's range is already strong, if you strengthen it with a raise then it's just too QQ-heavy, I think.

However... I honestly think you may want to be betting the river. I think when they check, they virtually never have a full house or better unless they actually do have 22 (AA22?) and they don't want to value-cut themselves against queens full.

When they see you call the flop and turn, they would probably assume you're not folding river just because your set is now an underfull, so I just really don't see the check as strong at all.

Like, you can't have enough bluffs for them to be value-checking. The flop was dry as a bone.

Last edited by DevWil; 06-29-2019 at 02:28 PM.
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
06-30-2019 , 01:21 AM
I mostly agree with before this ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevWil
On the turn, if you're calling flop you don't have much reason to fold. I disagree with raising, though: villain's range is already strong, if you strengthen it with a raise then it's just too QQ-heavy, I think.
To repeat djevans, the problem is what are we doing on the river? If we are calling all rivers then it's way better to raise turn ... unless you think villain will shove all rivers, but fold a lot to a raise now (Eg. has a bunch of air that is going to fire).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevWil
However... I honestly think you may want to be betting the river. I think when they check, they virtually never have a full house or better unless they actually do have 22 (AA22?) and they don't want to value-cut themselves against queens full.
I doubt this is good either, is villain really x/c without a Q here? What Qx hands do you think villain has that x/r flop and pot turn?

I mean, to be fair, given the hand the actual villain has he could certainly do anything ... but in general I assume you get a lot of folds and then calls from Q2/Q5 and less often 22. I might bet a bunch of rivers when checked to, but this isn't one.
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
07-04-2019 , 07:05 AM
[QUOTE=Caterina;55224835
Pre: I have ~15-20% VPIP, struggling to find profitable hands, I play the medium pocketpairs, if I like the sidecards and/or position preflop action. Here I thought, the limper is usually weak and I got position on the raiser + the BB discount.

Flop: Super dry flop + preflop raiser checking, makes this an autobet for me. I only have two sizings: half pot for paired boards and pot for the rest. That's not optimal for sure, but seems to work out just fine right now.
Don't like the raise, dry board, so villain shouldn't be semibluffin

[/QUOTE]

There are lots of better hand to vpip,mostly with higher cards than this garbage.Limper is weak often,but you re also with weak hand in sandwich position super deep.Very bad spot,so fold pre was correct play.
Sizing might work for now on plo2,but It can be more efficient to change I teven on this stake.1/2pot on paired board would be too big often.
Potting q27 r,super dry flop far from optimal.Remember you will not always have set here.Would you pot with aqxx here?
Anyway I would prefer jamming turn instead of calling.
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
07-04-2019 , 09:56 PM
Thanks for feedback @everyone.

Got a Hud now and I'm the second nittiest nit in the pool (16/11/4).
I read Hwang and mostly stick to his recommendations, but feel that I'm folding way too much. Isn't a good players VPIP more like 25%? Can't afford the PLO Matrix and occasionally try out hands, that I normally do not play. This was one of them. (wasn't happy with the result)
How do you people come to your preflop ranges?

Sizing: Observed some crusher who moved up. If I had to give him a name, I would call him Mr. Thin Value. It seems to me, there is a lot of merit in downsizing and potting often folds out hands, that I want to get called by. Making more money now with betting smaller in a lot of situations, shamelessly copying Mr. Thin Value.

--

As played, GI turn. got it.
In hindsight (even though there is crazy guys like this one), I think, should be folding flop. It's just QQ so often.
Would bet around 35% now (same with AQxx, Q7xx).
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
07-05-2019 , 02:52 AM
It's almost impossible to fold this vs a random. I mean yeah it feels like QQ most of the time, but then again, the flop is so ***** dry, it makes no sense for him to just pot it. There are no bad turns for QQ here...
Think turn is close, both options are probably fine(i usually tend to call here, just to keep his spazzes in and since there aren't any draws on the flop, it looks a lot better).
As played river is a mandatory vbet. Don't expect him to check a better hand very often + you block Q7/Q5 and he shouldn't have much Q2 combos.
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote
07-05-2019 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caterina
Got a Hud now and I'm the second nittiest nit in the pool (16/11/4).
Those books are way outdated so watch a few coaching videos and you wil get a better idea of preflop opening/defending range

playing nitty on plo2 will be profitable but your goal right now should be to learn the game. Playing 16/11 will rarely put you in a tough sot, and in those spots you actually improve the most and increase your winrate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caterina
Sizing: Observed some crusher who moved up. If I had to give him a name, I would call him Mr. Thin Value. It seems to me, there is a lot of merit in downsizing and potting often folds out hands, that I want to get called by. Making more money now with betting smaller in a lot of situations, shamelessly copying Mr. Thin Value.
In general people bet way too big on all streets, specially Flop
In your case what reasonable range will continue? people might even fold KK, KQ... and hands like that that you want to keep in
When you bet always think what you will get called by with certain size

The ones that play the trickiest are the biggest crushers.. Stats actually dont matter that much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caterina
As played, GI turn. got it.
In hindsight (even though there is crazy guys like this one), I think, should be folding flop. It's just QQ so often.
Would bet around 35% now (same with AQxx, Q7xx).
Shove river!

GL with PLO!
2PLO middleset facing check/raise OTF, deep Quote

      
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