Hero is a solid winning player hudless, looking to improve in marginal spots. None of the villains stand out, lots of stations. Loose passive game, 9 handed.
Utg limps, 3 others callers, hero ($37ish) raises to $1.75 in CO with Ac Kc Js 9s. Button calls, blinds both fold, 3 MP's call. Pot $8.75
I bet the flop hoping to secure the button and drive out trash, outside chance of ending hand there. The turn makes me a hand but obviously not the card I am looking for. I dont feel like I can make a blocking bet and fold with my stack size which is part of what makes this hand awkward.
On the flop, since its 5 ways, you don't need to be c-bet bluffing (which is what you're doing when you bet top pair into 4 people in PLO) very often at all since your value range is also extremely narrow. Your value range is basically just KKxx and QQxx, maybe KQ with backup. And I don't even think you have all those combos - at least personally I lean towards limping behind and setmining with my disconnected/weaker KK/QQ when facing 3 limps.
If you face a raise on the flop, you're almost always up against KK/QQ for value, maybe 77 if your opponent overvalues it. When you're being bluffed, its going to be by the NFD + at least a gutter. Occasionally a wrap with a weaker FD might pull the trigger, but you block that hard.
So when you bet your specific combo and get raised, you have to fold and that sucks since no matter what you're folding a lot of equity. On the other hand, if you check, you accomplish 2 things: (1) you get to realize a lot of equity in a large pot and (2) you keep ranges wide which makes it so that when you hit your second nut flush or even something like trip kings, it will be good a much higher percentage of the time.
So all things considered I lean towards checking flop, but I get why you bet and its not terrible.
I think the turn is actually a sort of easy spot but only if you are confident in what your range is. On the turn I like checking your whole range - your preflop and flop lines rep KK/QQ which are now trying to see a river to boat up. To protect those hands, you need to check your flushes too. If you are actually doing this in practice, you can just call your nut flushes, KK/QQ (since you're getting almost direct odds and have some implied odds), and fold everything else. When someone bets 2/3 pot into 2 players in an extremely narrow range situation, you don't need to defend that much. So folding 2nd nut flush here isn't that crazy.
If in reality like most people you're firing away when you turn the nuts, you have to call with the 2nd nuts here at least some percentage of the time since its the best possible hand in your range.
Last edited by Crowe Capital; 02-03-2018 at 02:54 AM.
Thanks much. In reality I am checking the nut flush some of the time here and understand why it's important to do so to balance our turn checking range with a set, but I'd be lying if I said I do it often. Most games I play in tend to have just a few thinking players and a table full of call monkeys so It's hard to check the nuts when you consistently get called by weaker flushes, 2pr, etc. I understand what I give up versus someone paying attention though.
In reality I folded and felt good about it. Like I said I've been crushing while avoiding marginal spots like this I'm just starting to wonder if I'm losing value in some of these spots.
You're only losing value in marginal situations like this because villains are unlikely to continue versus your cbet on the flop with dominated flush draws.
As Crowe explained, a check on the flop allows you to have more value on a turn like this and potentially get action from weaker flushes.
anyone telling you that you're not dead, has never ****ing played PLO before. learn by losing.. don't pay these douchebags money to teach you.. learn like a man.
So if I check flop do I take a x/c line on turn and evaulate river?
Yeah that's what I would do, although if the flop checks through then we're super multiway to the turn. So if there's a bunch of action in front of you, you can probably let it go.
