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Old 04-20-2017, 07:20 PM   #1
Rodagii
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10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

I'm not sure what to do here because I have decent equity against any hand that is raising here (sets and two pairs), but I'm not sure if this is a spot I want to get it in with like 40% equity if villain is likely never folding. Villain could be raising a worse draw here, but I'm not completely sure b/c he is sort of passive. Can I come over the top of this raise or do I want to have at least a bdf if not a flush draw?

#Game No : 479729269
$0.05/$0.10 Blinds Pot Limit Omaha - ***
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 9: Hero ( $63.20 )
Seat 10: Villain ( $13.47 )
Hero posts small blind [$0.05]
Villain posts big blind [$0.10]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ 9c, Qh, 2d, Tc ]
Hero raises [$0.25]
Villain calls [$0.20]
** Dealing flop ** [ Js, 5h, 8d ]
Villain checks
Hero bets [$0.45]
Villain raises [$1.95]
Hero calls [$1.50]
** Dealing turn ** [ 3h ]
Villain bets [$4.50]
Hero folds
** Summary **
Villain collected [ $4.40 ]
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Old 04-20-2017, 08:18 PM   #2
DoOrDoNot
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

>not sure you want to get it in with 40% equity

When do you ever want this lol
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Old 04-20-2017, 11:58 PM   #3
Rodagii
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

I meant that he could fold some hands if I 4bet, but if I get called at least I have decent equity against his better hands.

But if it's unclear how likely it is for villain to fold, is calling the flop raise and x/f turn to a pot sized fine?
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:31 AM   #4
monikrazy
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Hand seems wp, there are arguments for calling the turn but our implied equity does not seem great as villain should be able to put us on t9xx with high frequency - the flush draw does make things more interesting but with villains effective stack we aren't getting max value from our position anyways
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Old 04-21-2017, 09:39 PM   #5
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

First off, don't play PLO10 HU ... rake will be lol.

Pretty sure I'm calling the turn with position and still having 3x villains stack if he stacks us with a back door flush. Folding isn't bad, but what else are you calling flop x/r with that calls this turn?

Also not sure how much PLO10 villains will be folding to 1/2 pot AI on Q or 8 rivers (can even bet 4.50 again if you think villain will fold a lot), and I'd guess roughly 0% will fold value hands on T or 9 ... wouldn't even be shocked to see them go AI themselves.
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:30 AM   #6
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

The way I see it we we're getting 2/1 or so pot odds to make the call on flop and the chance to draw to our hand is around 20% on the turn. Considering the villain seems to be passive and the fact we block a lot of his str8 draws a little + there no flush draw, is that not an argument for just folding the flop?? Am I missing something?
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:32 AM   #7
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by illiterat View Post
First off, don't play PLO10 HU ... rake will be lol.

Pretty sure I'm calling the turn with position and still having 3x villains stack if he stacks us with a back door flush. Folding isn't bad, but what else are you calling flop x/r with that calls this turn?

Also not sure how much PLO10 villains will be folding to 1/2 pot AI on Q or 8 rivers (can even bet 4.50 again if you think villain will fold a lot), and I'd guess roughly 0% will fold value hands on T or 9 ... wouldn't even be shocked to see them go AI themselves.
Just out of interest at what level is the rake reasonable? I have just transitioned from NLh and am playing 2./.5 Guessing that's not great lol
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Old 04-22-2017, 12:14 PM   #8
Rodagii
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Hand seems wp, there are arguments for calling the turn but our implied equity does not seem great as villain should be able to put us on t9xx with high frequency - the flush draw does make things more interesting but with villains effective stack we aren't getting max value from our position anyways
Thanks for the reply, appreciate the thoughts . I agree, I think if I do make my hand I will get there in an obvious way and villain doesn't pay me off. The people play PLO in a funny way on my site though so you never know what they will do

Quote:
Originally Posted by illiterat View Post
First off, don't play PLO10 HU ... rake will be lol.

Pretty sure I'm calling the turn with position and still having 3x villains stack if he stacks us with a back door flush. Folding isn't bad, but what else are you calling flop x/r with that calls this turn?

Also not sure how much PLO10 villains will be folding to 1/2 pot AI on Q or 8 rivers (can even bet 4.50 again if you think villain will fold a lot), and I'd guess roughly 0% will fold value hands on T or 9 ... wouldn't even be shocked to see them go AI themselves.
Unfortunately there isn't a lot of PLO action on the site I play and because I really want to learn to play this game I will play hands whenever possible for experience over win rate And thanks for the response! Like the post above, if I make my hand I wouldn't be surprised to see Villain call it off even if I make it in an obvious way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yenolom View Post
The way I see it we we're getting 2/1 or so pot odds to make the call on flop and the chance to draw to our hand is around 20% on the turn. Considering the villain seems to be passive and the fact we block a lot of his str8 draws a little + there no flush draw, is that not an argument for just folding the flop?? Am I missing something?
I think flop is close between call or fold could go either way but I guess it's a slightly losing call.
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Old 04-22-2017, 02:47 PM   #9
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by yenolom View Post
The way I see it we we're getting 2/1 or so pot odds to make the call on flop and the chance to draw to our hand is around 20% on the turn. Considering the villain seems to be passive and the fact we block a lot of his str8 draws a little + there no flush draw, is that not an argument for just folding the flop?? Am I missing something?
Since you are transitioning from NL, do you bet/fold an 8-out OESD getting 2/1 and chance of hitting turn is 8/47?
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Old 04-22-2017, 10:44 PM   #10
Charlie Yu
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

I guess we should fold flop. Calling makes our hand transparant, and we are not getting the ~45%, either we are up against a set or a better draw (we don't have a pair)
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Old 04-23-2017, 02:32 AM   #11
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Yes, the consensus is correct, we do not have the required equity to peel flop so we should just fold.
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Old 04-23-2017, 04:48 AM   #12
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Lol @ folding flop
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Old 04-23-2017, 08:01 PM   #13
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Idk I call with lots of draws on raised flops. Guess I'm bad had

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Old 04-24-2017, 11:35 AM   #14
yenolom
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by gay_on_tse View Post
Since you are transitioning from NL, do you bet/fold an 8-out OESD getting 2/1 and chance of hitting turn is 8/47?
firstly I misread the hand, I thought we bet and got raised. and we actually have 13 outs. In answer to your question, it depends on a lot of factors. even given the 13 outs we're still not getting the price. so implied odds and being deep enough, also opportunity to bluff on later street when we miss is what I'd be thinking about to consider the call. If my logic is flawed to you care to enlighten me here??
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Old 04-24-2017, 05:58 PM   #15
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by yenolom View Post
firstly I misread the hand, I thought we bet and got raised. and we actually have 13 outs. In answer to your question, it depends on a lot of factors. even given the 13 outs we're still not getting the price. so implied odds and being deep enough, also opportunity to bluff on later street when we miss is what I'd be thinking about to consider the call. If my logic is flawed to you care to enlighten me here??

We did bet and get raised.

? You need 33% equity to call a PSR

You have 39% equity vs. JJ

Don't fold (the flop)
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Old 04-26-2017, 02:58 AM   #16
yenolom
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
We did bet and get raised.

? You need 33% equity to call a PSR

You have 39% equity vs. JJ

Don't fold (the flop)
assuming we will see the river
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Old 04-26-2017, 06:05 AM   #17
DoOrDoNot
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by yenolom View Post
assuming we will see the river
Yes
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Old 04-28-2017, 05:26 AM   #18
AveeMaria
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
We did bet and get raised.

? You need 33% equity to call a PSR

You have 39% equity vs. JJ

Don't fold (the flop)
Spitting a couple of hands into ppt doesn't make statements like this true. You're calculating your equity across 2 streets. If this is a cap game and his turn raise caps the betting, then sure, go ahead and call and you will have 39% equity or whatever the figure is.
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:54 PM   #19
DoOrDoNot
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by AveeMaria View Post
Spitting a couple of hands into ppt doesn't make statements like this true. You're calculating your equity across 2 streets. If this is a cap game and his turn raise caps the betting, then sure, go ahead and call and you will have 39% equity or whatever the figure is.
I'm also calculating it against just a few combos of JJ. Villain has more than JJ in his range and this is a blind joust so he's likely way wider than usual.
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:29 AM   #20
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

You missed the point entirely. You're still basing your equity on seeing two streets and only facing one bet.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:36 PM   #21
DoOrDoNot
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by AveeMaria View Post
You missed the point entirely. You're still basing your equity on seeing two streets and only facing one bet.
Which is a trivial point to make. Everyone understands this. The REAL point is that his range is wider than JJ which means that IF he has JJ exactly we are making a slightly -ev play on the flop IF WE ASSUME HE NEVER PUTS ANOTHER CENT IN WHEN HE GETS OUTDRAWN (not true), but since his range is not just JJ we can +ev call because we have position and can evaluate the turn.

Folding here is a travesty.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:58 PM   #22
AveeMaria
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by DoOrDoNot View Post
Which is a trivial point to make. Everyone understands this. The REAL point is that his range is wider than JJ which means that IF he has JJ exactly we are making a slightly -ev play on the flop IF WE ASSUME HE NEVER PUTS ANOTHER CENT IN WHEN HE GETS OUTDRAWN (not true), but since his range is not just JJ we can +ev call because we have position and can evaluate the turn.
I'm not sure where you've gone with this, and I don't entirely care to clarify. So in the interest of not derailing this any longer, let it be so.
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Old 05-04-2017, 12:13 AM   #23
Rei Ayanami
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by Vanhaomena View Post
Lol @ folding flop
^^
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Old 05-04-2017, 03:48 AM   #24
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

Isn't the whole point of playing PLO that we can call flop here? lol
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:56 PM   #25
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Re: 10PLO Decent Draw facing flop x/r

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Originally Posted by AveeMaria View Post
I'm not sure where you've gone with this, and I don't entirely care to clarify. So in the interest of not derailing this any longer, let it be so.
My point is that pot odds are not the only consideration. What you say that we are evaluating our pot odds for two streets is TRIVIAL because this is the flop and there are two cards to come. Furthermore, when we made our equity calculation we did so vs. exactly JJ. His range is wider than JJ, which means our equity is higher than we calculated. We also have implied odds when we hit, as villain will likely call at least a small bet on the turn with his strong made hands. If villain has a bluffy part of his range, then we can steal the pot later when we don't hit sometimes.

All these factors make this an easy call.
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