Hi everyone. I'm a long-time lurker, first time poster. Play mostly online PLO, with a little low stakes live. Played this hand and it's been bugging me for like 2 months.

Game is 1/3 with a mandatory $6 button straddle. It's around 3am, down to 4 players. I'm travelling so I only have loose perceptions of the other players (sat down mabye 20-30 minutes ago).

SB is solid reg playing deep.
BB is a younger kid who's definitely drunk or high or something. Playing pretty spewy. ~$200 stack
UTG is a guy in his 40s or 50s. Playing aggressively but seems solid. Also very deep.
I'm on the button with $340.

SB limps, BB bets $15, UTG 3bets to $50.

I call with 8765r on the button. SB folds, BB calls.

Flop comes J55 with 2 diamonds. BB shoves all-in, UTG takes a second then calls.

Hero?

folds. also folds pre.

Why the fold PF? Isn't this the kind of hand we want to call 3bets with?

no. that's why i said fold.

Stacks are super shallow, with the button straddle. I would mainly wait for high cards and 3bet, and squeeze spots and squeeze.

This hand I would fold because it's not high cards and it went limp, raise, 3bet.

cold calling a 3bet is so bad. what do you do if other guy jams? call it off in a three way with 8765 badugi?

I wasn't expecting controversy on the PF decision, I thought that was pretty standard. 9-handed this would be a fold, but i didn't think a call was out of line in a 4-handed game.

BB was raising pretty much everything, and if UTG has a high pair, rundowns typically play well against them. Yeah, something like T987ds would be ideal, but I don't think we can be too nitty in a 4-handed game (especially given the blind structure). PF play was loose, we have position, slight discount with the straddle, and there was a large chance we win a huge pot if the board hits us.

Yeah, BB shoving is pretty much a worst-case scenario, but we're not even in that bad shape 3-way against hands that would 3bet and jam.

Where's my reasoning wrong?

The hand probably prefers more multi-way pots, so it is likely more playable at a 9-handed table than a short-handed table. Either way, it prefers a small preflop pot rather than a big preflop pot. You have position, but you don't have a suit. I would guess that it is marginal in this situation and you can call or fold depending on your style, but it is in no way a premium hand. Arguably, you should only call the 3bet with hands which you would snap call if both players moved all-in preflop. Are you prepared to do that?

Post-flop comes down to reads. BB may be spewy, but he has to have a reason in his mind for shoving. This hand analysis starts with his range and goes on to what UTG calls with. You can start with the scenario where BB shoves with any 5, any overpair, and any good flush draw and give UTG a range of overpairs with a flush draw and see how your hand does against those ranges.

This boils down to how crazy is BB here and how loose is UTG willing to be against this bet, knowing you are behind him.

I mean, folding any non-2345 or 3456 rundown preflop in position in a live game would required some impressive patience

Agreed, not a premium hand. Facing a jam is a worst-case scenario but as I said before I don't do poorly against common jamming hands. I think given the table dynamic I still don't mind the call.


[QUOTE=BDHarrison]Post-flop comes down to reads. BB may be spewy, but he has to have a reason in his mind for shoving. This hand analysis starts with his range and goes on to what UTG calls with. You can start with the scenario where BB shoves with any 5, any overpair, and any good flush draw and give UTG a range of overpairs with a flush draw and see how your hand does against those ranges.

This boils down to how crazy is BB here and how loose is UTG willing to be against this bet, knowing you are behind him.
[\QUOTE]

I ended up tanking for awhile then folding. I figured I was absolutely crushed if anyone has JJ or J5, and anyone with a 5 probably has better kickers/outs than i do. BB is probably shoving wide here, but I didn't know whether he'd be jamming with absolutely anything on a paired board. Decent chance UTG is catching with an overpair, but JJ is still possible. Could be calling based on BB's range, but I figured there was an off chance he was trying to get me to call too. I figured there was a pretty low chance my hand was best 3 ways.

They ended up running it twice. First came an A then something else, second came a J then something else. UTG scooped with pocket aces. BB mucked, so he didn't have a jack or a 5.

Looking back I might favor a jam here.

Start from a sim where BB is in the pot with 50% of hands, and jams literally anything. Put UTG on AAxx:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J55

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
8s7c6h5d	62.53%	373,017	4,346
50%	18.67%	109,783	4,440
aaxx	18.80%	112,099	1,420

That sim favors us unrealistically. If we give BB a range of jacks and 5's with a flush draw:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J55

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
8s7c6h5d	50.33%	300,428	3,110
jtsqsx,5tsqsx	33.18%	197,716	2,750
aaxx	16.49%	98,487	878

We're still in fine shape.

A 5 with better kickers gets us pretty good, but if we jam, we cover BB by about $130, so we'd be a serious favorite in the side pot with UTG. And we're still not in horrible shape.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J55

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
8765	30.18%	180,979	154
kqt5	54.92%	329,517	0
aaxx	14.90%	89,350	154

The final sim I did was BB jamming with any 5, J, JJ or J5. We still sit at about 41%, and higher than that for the side pot.

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

board: J55

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
8s7c6h5d	41.08%	242,821	7,355
jxxx,5xxx,JJxx,J5xx	42.64%	252,207	7,250
aaxx	16.28%	97,289	763

Felt like it would've been a sketchy call, with how easy it is for us to be absolutely crushed. But might've been an overly nitty fold. Idk. Not sure if I'm being too results-oriented.

In a four handed game where's it's gone call/raise/3bet and you have like 50bb?


I don't hate it if you are sure you'll see a flop, given it _should_ be easy to get it in correctly, but setting fire to 10-15% of your stack or just gambling vs. overpairs/overcards pre. both seem like pretty bad options though.

However one of the "problems" with calling here is that you can't hero fold if you see a flop and hit, otherwise pre. is massive spew.

Posted ranges for BB seem insane, BB is shoving 1 SPR and the given read was "definitely drunk or high or something. Playing pretty spewy" ... UTG doesn't have to have AA/AJ either, AKQ no spades is in a tough spot but probably calls.

Flop is a call. Preflop is quite bad.