Noob question here

120bb effective 5handed.

MP open 6bb, Hero SB 3bet to 21bb AA78, MP call

Flop 39J

Hero check, MP bet 35bb, Hero shove

Correct play or not?

not. this is a disastrous flop for our hand and SPR isn't shallow enough to stack off.

This is one of those common spots where it becomes more annoying if your 3bet range is mostly AAxx.

Flop isn't "disastrous" for you, as you are still ahead of pre flop ranges ... but x/r is bad and the hand can be very profitable for villain if you don't have a plan.

Any reads on if villain is mostly just value betting here, or if villain will happily ¾ pot most of his range when you check "obvious AA". Even if you think villain is going to try to bluff you off almost always, flop x/r is still worse than flop x/c.

Giving up on this action. But if our hand were slightly better and/or stacks slightly shorter we will start taking other lines, including sometimes betting flop.

FWIW vision says that if you have AA87 with 100bb on JxTy4y after a 3bet from 6max UTG open then you should just pot this combo. ... only checking with the nut backdoor flush combos., and if you get raised you call it off 100%.
If you do check it just calls a pot bet (villain should only pot or check) without nut flush draw (but this is low frequency because it basically never checks anything but bdnfd).

Again, I'd be a little suspicious about that advise because visions pre. flop ranges are going to be so much better than yours ... and to a lesser extent it's assumptions of villains flop shoving range is also very different. And a much lesser extent is the slight differences, including the 20bb.

Blah, just realised you are 5 handed, I'd assumed from the start you are 9 handed in a home game (wtf is MP ... CO?) ... anyway vision doesn't really change much with SB vs. BTN 3bet. It now pots all combos. of AA87 on JxTy4y with small mixins of checking bdfd combos. and our combos. Same after that though, if we pot we call it off and if we check and get potted we call.

Why is it recommended to check bdfds?

guess the gutshot gives us enough extra raw equity to go for it. also i think 87 on J9x is slightly more favourable than 87 on JTx since is dominated by a gutty instead of an OE. not very significant probably. actually bet makes sense especially sb vs BU because we have a strong range advantage on this type of flop (since BU is opening so wide and folding so infrequently) and, since we are three betting a lot of broadway hands so we connect quite well on this type of board. wonder what sort of spr the vision sim is looking at, i think 3 bet pot is usually around 3.5 so should be pretty close.

Solvers just tell us the answer, not why it's the answer.

My guess is that the biggest thing you don't want to do when checking is let them check behind and get more equity on the turn, having the NBDFD means they can't hit the BDFD draw themselves.

This is a pure check with Vision. Couldn't replicate it exactly but SB vrs UTG 3 bet pot on JT4 two tone is never bet with AA78 without the A front door flush draw blocker or draw. This hand started at 120bb deep so checking frequency will go up.

With front door flush draw its betting 33% of the time for half pot, with 3 flushing cards 100% of the time for full pot, with front and back doors covered bets 100% of the time for half pot, with nut flush blocker its split between half pot bets and checking, with backdoor only its always checking.

Well one of us is wrong, and I've only used it a couple of times so could well be me ... *goes back to double check everything* ... Yep, apparently, vision defaults to 50bb stacks? wtf kind of default is that??? Sigh, now I'm worried about everything I've looked at.

Your not the only one. "Hey group check this heuristic out" turns out some error was made and facepalm lol.

Vision only offers sb 3b vrs utg and btn. Vrs vrs the looser btn range sb is still checking this flop, and calls with this hand 99% of the time.

MP range is substantially closer to UTG than to button.

My point was that in both positions both tight and loose hero's hand is a check.

Wouldn't Vision assume that the Villain's range is extremely tight vs an UTG open? In a 1/1/2 home game, I doubt any player is playing GTO. Therefore, the V range will be much wider than it should be and Vision isn't taking that into consideration.

Not trying to start a GTO vs Exploitative war here... JS...

His point was not loose vrs tight, it was 50bb stack vrs 100b stack. As stated previously by myself I ran it vrs both UTG and BTN and its still always checking with this had at 100bb.

My point has nothing to do with 50bb vs 100bb. It has to do with simulations relating to live play. Simulations assume a range that V is playing x % vs x position. Live players don't consider this. They don't balance their range because they have no idea what it means.

My point is we are using unrealistic theory vs live players in games where people are gambling.

Perhaps I was not clear, the BTN range is looser than the UTG range. If there was a drastic adjustment in strategy then it would be shown in the results between those two sims. There is not any difference, and the situation is not close. Could there be absurdities say against a 100% VPIPer who always calls 3 bets that could make it correct? Sure. But deviating drastically requires confidence in the degree and scale of villains deviation. Does this specific scenario fit that description? Its a matter of opinion and assumption. Adjust as you see fit

We have 2.5 SPR right? That's a pot get in on the flop for me.

You guys are using vision wrong.

Firstly, J8 is way closer to J9 than JT. JT runs into KQ+ pair+ combos a ton more. Secondly, the SPR is 2.5~, whereas visions 100bbs has it as 3.6

On J82hh (using AA97, even at 100bbs, we bet our entire non NFB range, splitting between half pot and pot. In a 2.5 SPR, we'd simply pot stack off no questions asked.

For reference, in the 100bbs spot, even if we half pot, we still continue.